Catholic Women’s Ordination Conference Lays Out the Case for Women Priests

WOC ^ | 4/12/05 | Women's Ordination Conference

[postvat]

When priests become nuns and can carry living human beings inside them will nuns and women become priests.

Women share in life with their specially prepared bodies and minds which are far superiorr to men in compassion and care giving. They can form communities to relieve suffering and teach God's kingdom and many other things.

If humans were all equal in every and all ways, why, according to the bible, was Eve punished in the Garden of Eden only AFTER Adam himself ate of the forbidden fruit. Only after Adam ate did God punish Eve.

I believe Adam could have and should have protected Eve from the creature in the garden and he didn't. Remember, Adam named Eve.

I admit this isn't all deep provable stuff, just some of my own thoughts.

Women and men have different roles and bodies. Even Jesus did not "snatch" at equality with the Father. He said choose the last place, not the first.

[miele man]

"...in 1976 the Vatican’s own Pontifical Biblical Commission concluded that there is no scriptural reason to prohibit women’s ordination."

Pray tell, which theologically liberal Cardinals and Bishops constituted this "commission"?

No doubt, the liberal Roman Catholics will parrot what the apostates in the Episcopal Church said that Jesus picked all male apostles because He was "culturally conditioned".

[llama hunter]

whoa nelly, the reality is God's word isn't always exact, especially when a whole lot of people were writing it down, or who would need scholars, right?

the reality is the Catholic Church itself has changed over the centuries, the major religions of the world no longer condone slavery and yet the Bible and the Koran both condone if not encourage it, isn't there a passage in the Bible about blacks being beasts of burden and/or inferior that was used to justify the African slave trade, now assuming that is true, are you going to tell me the Vatican still holds to this or was that passage "reinterpreted?"

[SaltyJoe]

I propose that the Holy See leaves this issue to Jesus for when He returns so that He can decide. Then it won't resurface as a Catholic issue except for non-Catholics. Some things are just a waste of time, and I think that's what's intended by the women-for-priesthood politics.

[NYer]

In May 1994, Pope John Paul II issued an Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone.1 In this document, the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ on earth reiterated in a particularly solemn manner a Church teaching to the effect that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women."

The Holy Father declared that this judgment was "to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." He said that he was issuing this judgment "in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself." He said that he was speaking in virtue of his "ministry of confirming the brethren (Luke 22:32)."

"Rome has spoken," but the "cause" goes on and on anyway. The pope declared infallibly that there is to be no female ordinations.

Catholic Ping
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[NYer]

But married priests at least is a possibility because it is only a discipline on the Roman Rite of the Church. Eastern Catholics in union with Rome do have married priests.

Actually, some of the protestant converts to the Roman Catholic Church, former ministers, are applying to the local bishop for permission to be admitted to seminary. There have been situations where they were accepted. The conditions that apply to the Eastern Catholic Churches apply to the former protestant ministers.

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the decision to marry must be made before ordination. Those who choose to marry may not serve as bishops, cardinals, etc. In fact, those who choose to marry may not be assigned outside of their native country.

Eastern Catholic priests who do not marry, take a vow of celibacy.

[Dionysiusdecordealcis]

Brooklyn Drive said: Maybe I have a different take on things. I wouldn't have problems if the Church allowed women as priests. What's more important is that the priest (be it a man or a woman) have the orthodox belief in the real presence of the Eucharist. This belief among even the current male priesthood is somewhat in jeopardy and thus among the laity. This is the belief that is at the heart of being a Catholic Christian.

Here's my take on and summary of the argument from tradition that is used by Ordinatio sacerdotalis. In another post, someone from the Orthodox perspective offered the various iconic arguments and thought they are superior to this one. I agree that the iconic arguments are good, but there are reasons why John Paul II did not use them in Ordinatio sacerdotalis

Women cannot be ordained priests because Christ established the priesthood when he established the episcopate in the person of his twelve apostles. He chose no women. He was not culturally captive (i.e., afraid to offend a patriarchal culture), for if that was his reason, he was certainly not God incarnate and if he wasn’t God incarnate, there’s no priesthood or episcopate at all.

The issue of women priests was never raised (except abstractly) until modern cultural changes changed the way some people view men’s and women’s roles. But Christ, being non-captive to a patriarchal culture 2000 years ago, is not going to become captive to a non-patriarchal culture today, for if he acceded to the cultural demand, he would scarcely be the Transcendent Creator God Incarnate that Christians have always claimed he was.

If the pope tomorrow would announce women were to be ordained priests, he would have just ended all Catholic claims for an indefectible, infallible Church guided by a divinely assisted historic apostolic succession reaching back to Christ and keeping the Church non-captive to culture throughout these many years. In renouncing apostolic succession he would have renounced the heart of Catholic faith and would have destroyed the very authority by which he acted, since the bishop of Rome has no authority if apostolic succession does not exist. Protestants who ordain women ministers make no claim to ordain women priests, because they rejected the whole notion of apostolic succession and sacramental priesthood at the time of the Protestant Reformation.

Within the Catholic Church a variety of women ministers have always functioned. Except for Anglo-Catholic Anglicans (who for that reason prefer not to be called Protestants), Protestants claim only to have women ministers, not women priests.

[Remole]

Thank you for your careful and elegant reply. Yes, the argument from Jesus' dual human and divine natures is a very strong one, and I have heard it many times and I agree with it. I raised the argument from the iconic understanding of Jesus as Bridegroom and the Church as Bride (and thus, the Groom MUST be male) because it is central to the NT and SHOULD have a claim upon those who consider the NT to be normative. But your argument is a good one and I'll keep it in mind. Lately, I've been discussing this issue quite a bit, before many audiences, and the lame MSM comment comes up all the time, "well, now, what about women priests? will the next Pope be as conservative as JPII?" Ugh.

[Conservative til I die]

“First and foremost, God calls women to be priests. Women and men are equally created in the image of God; therefore, the church should embrace the gifts of women in all levels of ministry,”

Equality does not mean same.

“There is no biblical or theological reason to keep women from the priesthood,” continued Barnes. The Vatican states women cannot be priests because in the gospels Jesus chose only male apostles. However, in 1976 the Vatican’s own Pontifical Biblical Commission concluded that there is no scriptural reason to prohibit women’s ordination.

Unfortunately for Barnes, we aren't Protestants and don't believe in sola scriptura. This is assuming she isn't taking the PBC's statements out of context, which may entirely be the case.

Boy, for the talk at the beginning of this article about the WOC proving historically and scripturally the case for female ordination, all we get was a couple of platitudes about Christ's message and an argument from silence (i.e., the Bible doesn't expressly condemn it, so...")

[Conservative til I die]

I agree that it will be a real stretch for the hierarchy to go back to the very old days when there were female priests.

You're not being serious are you? Or are you one of those dupes who believes everything he reads?

[Conservative til I die]

Maybe I have a different take on things. I wouldn't have problems if the Church allowed women as priests. What's more important is that the priest (be it a man or a woman) have the orthodox belief in the real presence of the Eucharist. This belief among even the current male priesthood is somewhat in jeopardy and thus among the laity. This is the belief that is at the heart of being a Catholic Christian.

So you think you know more than all the Popes who ever lived, *and* the Holy Spirit who guides them?

The matter has been stated to be closed, forever, end of discussion.

[Conservative til I die]

Unfortunately, some people will believe anything they hear or read in passing, not bothering to a) verify what is being asserted or b) check the credentials and/or the agenda of those propogating these sorts of stories.

Some of these people are the same ones that believe Pope Joan existed and that Jesus really married Mary Magdalene and their child is really the Holy Grail.

Just goes to show the importance of who controls the media. Control the media, and you'll fool most of the people who are only half-paying attention.

[muir_redwoods]

It's an odd position that says that Charlie Manson would be a more acceptable candidate for the priesthood than Mother Theresa might have been.

[Conservative til I die]

I just believe priests are married to the church, and that it is not fair to the spouse, or the church. Too many chances for dilemmas. Say a family member has a health issue, is he going to sacrifice his church duties to tend to them?

Also, to me at least, it seems like allowing married priests turns the priesthood into an occupation, not a special calling. That's not to question the commitment of those Catholic priests that are married.

[Conservative til I die]

I just believe priests are married to the church, and that it is not fair to the spouse, or the church. Too many chances for dilemmas. Say a family member has a health issue, is he going to sacrifice his church duties to tend to them?

Also, to me at least, it seems like allowing married priests turns the priesthood into an occupation, not a special calling. That's not to question the commitment of those Catholic priests that are married.

[Conservative til I die]

I'm not sure if you're referring to a specific encyclical needing to be dedicated to the issue, but as a Catholic, I have often heard the bride/bridegroom analogy used as one of the reasons for an all-male, all-celibate clergy.

[Remole]

No, all I'm saying is that, while individual preachers may use the Bride-Bridegroom Metaphor, that argument has not been used in the official magisterial documents on the issue, as far as I can see.

[It's me]

There is no biblical or theological reason to keep women from the priesthood,” continued Barnes.

Funny how Jesus only had men with Him during the Last Supper. Which, by hte way, was when the priesthood was instituted. Do you think He was trying to tell us something?

[Conservative til I die]

I think married priests will happen before women priests if ever since there were married priests in the Catholic Church until 1139 AD......obviously the Eastern Orthodox Catholic tradition believes there is scriptural support for married priests

You are misunderstanding Church teaching on the topic. It's not that we find a married priesthood unscriptural or a celibate clergy scriptural. That never was the issue. Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and it can be changed at any time. You can't do that with doctrine. The Church merely finds celibacy to be the ideal and certainly the better alternative to a married priesthood.

[Conservative til I die]

I think married priests will happen before women priests if ever since there were married priests in the Catholic Church until 1139 AD......obviously the Eastern Orthodox Catholic tradition believes there is scriptural support for married priests

You are misunderstanding Church teaching on the topic. It's not that we find a married priesthood unscriptural or a celibate clergy scriptural. That never was the issue. Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and it can be changed at any time. You can't do that with doctrine. The Church merely finds celibacy to be the ideal and certainly the better alternative to a married priesthood.