Posted on 06/15/2005 12:27:19 PM PDT by veronica
(1st Add: Includes comments from George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney.)
(CNSNews.com) - Terri Schiavo's body did not show any signs of trauma or other criminal activity that would explain her brain injury, nor was there evidence to support previous diagnoses of a heart attack or an eating disorder, the Florida medical examiner who conducted her autopsy said Wednesday. A representative of Terri's family complimented the report, but said it still leaves many questions unanswered.
"She died of dehydration," Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Florida medical examiner for Pinellas and Pasco counties said, noting that the official cause of death would be listed as "complications of anoxic encephalopathy."
"That's the only diagnosis that I know for sure, is that her brain went without oxygen," he added. "Why? That is undetermined."
George Felos - attorney for Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo - said the report confirms what he has argued all along.
"The courts have found that there was no abuse of Terri, no evidence of abuse, and that's what the medical examiner found," Felos said.
Terri Schiavo collapsed under unknown circumstances in 1990. Michael Schiavo was awarded nearly $2 million in judgments and settlements in a medical malpractice lawsuit claiming that the collapse was caused by a heart attack triggered by a potassium imbalance, caused by an undiagnosed eating disorder, bulimia nervosa. Thogmartin challenged that determination.
"No one observed Mrs. Schiavo taking diet pills, binging and purging or consuming laxatives and she apparently never confessed to her family or friends about having an eating disorder," Thogmartin found. "Furthermore, many other signs of bulimia nervosa were not reported to be present."
Terri was "heavy" as a teenager, according to Thogmartin, and had lost more than 100 pounds after graduation. The eating disorder diagnosis was based on that fact and a low potassium level measured during a blood test about an hour after Terri was first hospitalized.
"Her low potassium level appears to be the main piece of evidence purporting to show that she had an eating disorder," Thogmartin said. But he noted that she received numerous medical treatments when she arrived at the hospital that would have lowered that measurement.
"Thus the main piece of evidence supporting the diagnosis of bulimia nervosa is suspect," he concluded.
"Once you eliminate the potassium problem, which is known in bulimics, you end up with a 26-year-old who used to be healthy, who now lost the weight, is reveling in her thinness now, enjoying her life and doesn't want to gain the weight back," Thogmartin said. "If that's a bulimic, there's a lot of bulimics out there. It's just not enough."
Thogmartin said that because he cannot, "with reasonable medical certainty," ascertain why or how the blood and oxygen to Terri's brain were interrupted, he cannot rule on what started the chain of events that led to her death.
"The manner of death is different from the cause of death. Manner of death is the circumstances of death or how the death came about," Thogmartin said. "Since I don't know the circumstances or can't tell, actually, what the underlying cause is, the manner of death has to be 'undetermined.'"
Other allegations and theories addressed
Thogmartin dismissed the theory that the oxygen depravation to Terri's brain might have been the result of a myocardial infarction, the medical term for a "heart attack," or death of heart muscle from coronary artery disease.
"Mrs. Schiavo's heart was anatomically normal without any areas of recent or remote infarction," he explained.
In response to the allegations that Terri's collapse was the result of a physical assault, Thogmartin noted that she received nearly 30 X-rays, CAT scans and ultrasound examinations during the medical examination that followed her collapse.
"Any fractures - including rib fractures, leg fractures, ankle fractures, skull fractures, spine fractures - that occurred concurrent with her initial collapse would almost certainly have been diagnosed in 1990, especially with the number of physical exams, radiographs and other evaluations she received during her initial hospitalization," Thogmartin said. "No fractures or trauma were reported or recorded."
There was also, Thogmartin said, "no evidence to support or the evidence did not support," various allegations that Terri was abused or neglected after her initial brain injury.
Was Terri in a Persistent Vegetative State?
Thogmartin brought in Dr. Stephen Nelson, an expert in pathology of the brain and central nervous system, as a consultant during the autopsy. Nelson stressed numerous times that the diagnosis of a "Persistent Vegetative State," which was used to justify the removal of the feeding tube that kept Terri alive, "is a clinical diagnosis, it's not a pathologic diagnosis that has precision associated with it." But he did not dispute the finding.
"There is nothing in her autopsy report, in her autopsy that is inconsistent with Persistent Vegetative State," Nelson said, adding that there was evidence to support the finding.
"A normal brain weight for somebody who is approximately 41 years of age ought to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,200 to 1,300 grams," Nelson explained. "Her brain is 615 grams and is largely reduced to what is termed granular atrophy ... associated with the loss of blood flow that happened many years prior.
"Those all are consistent with what is reported in the literature for Persistent Vegetative State," Nelson added. "We found nothing that is contrary to what has previously been reported for Persistent Vegetative State."
Nelson compared the physical condition of Terri's brain to that of Karen Ann Quinlan, the New Jersey woman who died in 1985 -- nine years after her parents won a court battle to remove her from a respirator.
"Her brain, Karen Ann Quinlan's, weighed more than Terri Schiavo's brain weighed," Nelson said. "The findings here are, perhaps, worse, even, than Karen Ann Quinlan."
Thogmartin also concluded that Terri's brain injury was irreversible.
"Her brain was profoundly atrophied," the medical examiner concluded. "This damage was irreversible and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
Michael Schiavo relied on the diagnosis of a Persistent Vegetative State when he sought permission from the Florida courts to remove Terri's feeding tube. He and two of his relatives testified that Terri had said she would not want to be kept alive in such a condition. Thogmartin discussed the contention by many right-to-life advocates that Terri's family should have been allowed to offer her food and water by mouth after that feeding tube was removed.
"She would not have been able to consume sustenance safely or in sufficient quantity by mouth," Thogmartin said. "Mrs. Schiavo was dependent, therefore, on nutrition and hydration by her feeding tube and removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed by mouth or not."
In layman's terms
After a technical explanation of his findings, laden with medical language, Thogmartin was asked to summarize his findings in an exchange with one unidentified reporter:
REPORTER: "In layman's terms, did Terri Schiavo starve to death?"
THOGMARTIN: "No."
REPORTER: "Did she suffer any neglect or abuse?"
THOGMARTIN: "No."
REPORTER: "Will we ever know what caused her death?"
THOGMARTIN: "I don't know."
Pamela Hennessy, spokeswoman for the Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation and Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, complimented Thogmartin on his report.
"However, it does seem that the conclusions of his report leave as many unanswered questions as there were previously," Hennessy said. "For instance, if Terri did not suffer bulimia and she had as healthy a heart as Dr. Thogmartin proclaimed, what caused her collapse?
"It doesn't really bring much in the way of closure to [the Schindlers] as far as what happened to their daughter, why this happened in the first place and what could have been done for her," Hennessy concluded.
Thogmartin said he is open to answering those questions.
"It is the policy of this office that no case is ever closed, and that all determinations are to be reconsidered upon receipt of credible new information," he explained.
"In addition to fading memories, the 15-year survival of Mrs. Schiavo after her collapse resulted in the creation of a voluminous number of documents, many of which were lost or discarded over those years," he continued. "Receipt of additional credible information that clarifies any outstanding issues may, or shall cause an amendment to her cause and manner of death."
"that God chooses our time of departure"
"Logically, then, we shouldn't do anything to extend life artificially, either."
God expects us to HELP, not hurt. But if God wants to, you bet damn sure He will get that body as well as soul if He wants it, no matter your great technology to help the person.
It's pretty typical, I'm afraid. Issues like this tend to show as much vehemence at least, and venom at worst, as any Dem-Repub match could.
But then, every forum of every kind I've ever been on gets to this sometimes. You cannot escape it, and frankly, isn't it boring when there is only agreement? ;-D
BTW, welcome here, whatever you think!
He would have, but he knew you would then say, "Why did Michael act so quickly?" "What's the rush?" "Why didn't he wait to see if her condition would improve?" "Why didn't he try other treatments?"
That's why.
Agreed! Take care.
MS himself requested that the court make that decision, no?
You have made it more than clear that you support the State ordered dehydration of TS
The state of Florida does not require a written advance directive. The court ruled, and was upheld at every level, that TERRI'S WISHES were NOT to live under those conditions. Following her wishes in this matter does not constitute "state-ordered death".
Which is why you are in no position to sue anybody who claims you support the state ordered death by dehydration of severely disabled citizens like TS.
You expressed an (erroneous) opinion, not a statement of fact.
I say what I mean and I stand behind what I say and if you think you can intimidate me into shutting up with your libel and slander bs you better think again pal.
Go right ahead. And I'll respond as I choose.
Nobody slandered or libeled anybody, you used in an effort to squelch debate because you had nothing else left.
Wrong again. Don't stop, you're on quite a roll here.
You could but then you'd be lying.
Thanks Joe, that is true. I still make that mistake once in a while.
All part of the conspiracy, dontcha know. (rolls eyes)
His treatment of loving parents of Terri.
Oh, right, never mind all the terrible things they insinuated about him.
I might add, it was the intervention of not hydrating and feeding the woman that killed her. While the hydration was the part that killed her, both were important. If she would have been maintained with these items she would have lived. She died by the hands, or in this case, the withholding of the hands of another. It was a deliberate choice to kill her IMO, and that's the part that sticks in my craw.
19 other judges only reviewed the way it was handled, not the evidence themselves. There is a difference.
It is equally relevant.
Why did MS bring up her "wishes" many years *after* her collapse - and indeed, after malpractice suit? Why didn't he act on her "wishes" much earlier??
Anything you or I might say about his motives is sheer speculation. You think he had venal reasons for acting so. An alternative explanation is that it took him several years to become convinced that her state really was unrecoverable.
Now why, do you suppose, did it take 10 YEARS for the Schindlers to come out with the abuse allegations against MS?
Thank you for posting this. Apparently many understand what is really going on here even though many FR posters are blind (wonder why they so absolutely want the right to use hearsay evidence to kill?)
All of us should take heart from the FR poll showing 70-80% were against killing Terri. We should take heart from Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Fred Barnes, Governor Bush and President Bush and Tom Delay. We should take heart from the fact that Gov. Jeb Bush got a law passed that gave Terri two more years, that the congress did act to get a federal review de novo for Terri before she was killed.
There are many of us (even some of the democrats) that see what is at stake here. We will just have to work with those to protect the constitutational rights for all - not just those deemed worthy of life.
Thank the Lord that many in America still honor the sanctity of life over the right to kill for convenience. May God bless them and help them in this fight.
Really, Clancy, you aren't thinking clearly. I'm not the one being libelled, so of course I wouldn't be suing anyone. The one to file a slander suit against Hannity, should he choose to do so, would be Michael Schiavo.
You do not have any idea how you make yourself look on FR.
As opposed to what, the perception created by those on your side?
To play the devil's advocate, I must point out that these people would have just as much to fear or lose, if not more, if they didn't go along with the MS, Greer, pro death people.
So that argument is moot.
The death trolls are out in full force since the autopsy report was published.
You made the statements to JWalsh - go back and read them same as everyone else read them.
Good point.
There are so many points in this whole argument. We should really just have a "spiel" of all of them we could just copy and paste.
"Judge Greer explicitly concluded that he could not rule on Terri Schiavo's intentions based solely on her husband's testimony."
Thanks for clarifying that portion.
"He ruled, instead, that Michael Schiavo's testimony was corroborated by multiple other witnesses whose statements were consistent and reliable."
As I recall, all of 2 - TWO - others. "Multiple" is meant to make it seem a legion of witnesses came forward. And just as many came from the other, if my memory is correct.
I am aware of the LEGAL definition of "hearsay", which is basically saying anything 3rd party or further constitutes it. However, the English definition includes the 2nd party, so in that manner, MS SAYING he HEARD this or that is NOT "direct". Direct, in English, comes straight from the horse's mouth - or in this case, Terri's. 1st-party evidence.
I know that doesn't matter in court, but in real life, it does. Even in criminal courts if you have nothing but several people claiming different stories tho they were all definitely "there" equally, as 2nd parties, the issue is still in question when their stories conflict (lie or just plain bad perception). In everyday life you can't believe every person who tells you he heard X - even if it's not a "lie", it could be poor hearing or poor interpretation of what was, really, Y.
Her death wasn't even caused by complications of what happened to her 15 years ago when she collapsed.
Despite what the autopsy cause of death states.
She would have lived and died naturally at some point in the future if they had not of taken her food and water away in March. As the ME, himself, said she was healthy and her heart was healthy. The direct cause of death was dehydration.
That's ludicrous. They're so contemptible cuz they prefer LIFE, and want to take CARE of her? Big deal. Lots of people want to talk others out of wanting to die, be it plain suicide or medical situations like this. What is so damn terrible about not liking her (alleged only) choice and wanting to keep her alive? Oh the absurdity. At least have the decency to be ambivalent about the family. Not hateful.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.