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Terri Schiavo Autopsy: Manner of Death 'Undetermined'
CNSNews.com ^ | June 15, 2005 | Jeff Johnson

Posted on 06/15/2005 12:27:19 PM PDT by veronica

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To: ClancyJ
You made the statements to JWalsh - go back and read them same as everyone else read them.

This exchange:

HIM: LOL, why don't you sue me?

ME: I'm not the one being libelled.

might have tipped you off.

801 posted on 06/16/2005 11:21:36 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: robertpaulsen

Nonsense.

The main thing here is it calls into question his - and his interested siblings/cousins/in-laws - intentions.


802 posted on 06/16/2005 11:22:25 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
What is so damn terrible about not liking her (alleged only) choice and wanting to keep her alive?

What right do parents have to impose their wishes upon their adult children?

803 posted on 06/16/2005 11:23:24 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: ClancyJ; Gondring
"No, you are a part of the death-culture."

Well, I'm not in Florida, so your statement does not apply... but in any case, with new and expensive facilities becoming available all the time to keep bodies somewhat functioning long after the consiousness has gone, I suppose we should look forward to "Lifeoleums".


804 posted on 06/16/2005 11:25:23 AM PDT by RS (Just because they are out to get him, it doesn't mean he's not guilty.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel

"You're implying their real desire was to kill her off themselves?"

I'm implying nothing.


805 posted on 06/16/2005 11:27:48 AM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: Saundra Duffy
"They killed her and no manner of shouting, discussing, arguing, yelling, can change that fact. Terri was alive and healthy and 13 days later she was dead. Cause of death: Michael Schiavo and the two George's, not to mention a bunch of disgusting politicians."

Yes, Saundra, we all know very well that that's how you feel. It just isn't that simplistic to all of us. Whether we agreed with the ultimate conclusion, or not, some of us actually care a lot about honesty and hate disinformation from any source.

Too many here don't give a flying fig about credibility or integrity anymore. The popular new phrase is "they killed her and that's all that matters", and that's a pretty sad position, IMO.
806 posted on 06/16/2005 11:28:06 AM PDT by Trinity_Tx (9/9/2000) I'd rather be uncertain in my pursuit of truth than certain in my defense of a falsehood)
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To: malakhi

"Anything you or I might say about his motives is sheer speculation."

Correct.


"You think he had venal reasons for acting so."

As you're always admonishing, don't ASS-U-ME here. I don't know anything about Michael for certain. I've said many times - esp. during the whole nitemare - that there is apparently no solid evidence he did anything bad (per se). He may have totally had her interests at heart.

I've always said the ultimate thing that makes me sick is the poor judgement by the judge on likewise FLIMSY evidence. That led to Terri's neglect and death.


"An alternative explanation is that it took him several years to become convinced that her state really was unrecoverable."

Yes, possible, but wouldn't that make him "terrible" according to the "rite-to-die" people to put her thru all that agony for years? Wasn't Terri in pretty bad shape from the get-go and showed little change?

The judge should've thought it queer that the man would apparently work hard on a woman who was apparently in a bad state for some years, then finally declare she wanted to die.

Maybe Michael is totally innocent, and LIKE the Schindlers, at 1st he didn't want to obey his wife and tried to get her better rather than let her wither away. Then maybe he just gave up, unlike the Schindlers, and decided he'd go along w/her wishes.

That all doesn't erase the fact that the evidence either way was flimsy, and supporting death on flimsy evidence seems very poor judgement and rule of law to me.


807 posted on 06/16/2005 11:30:45 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: antceecee

"""It is amazing to me that they will not find de-hydration/starvation as the manner of death."""

It is amazing to me that they will not find "de-hydration" as the manner of death.

Nobody but nobody ever died of starvation when both, water & food, were witheld at the same time. NOBODY!!

And you can take that to the bank!


808 posted on 06/16/2005 11:36:56 AM PDT by RedwineisJesus
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To: malakhi

By what NATURAL right does a *spouse* have to impose his wishes?


Again, in English, his was hearsay "he-said" evidence - WAY AFTER the fact.


809 posted on 06/16/2005 11:38:15 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
but wouldn't that make him "terrible" according to the "rite-to-die" people to put her thru all that agony for years?

It is no more their business than it is the business of those on the "right-to-life" side. Private. Family. Decisions.

Wasn't Terri in pretty bad shape from the get-go and showed little change?

Yes. I could understand, however, why someone might hang onto hope for years.

The judge should've thought it queer that the man would apparently work hard on a woman who was apparently in a bad state for some years, then finally declare she wanted to die.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Once MS accepted that she was not going to recover, then it seems reasonable that he would seek to act upon her wish not be remain in such a condition.

That all doesn't erase the fact that the evidence either way was flimsy, and supporting death on flimsy evidence seems very poor judgement and rule of law to me.

I'm not completely comfortable with the law in Florida, either, but as far as I can see it was followed in this case.

810 posted on 06/16/2005 11:41:20 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: the OlLine Rebel
By what NATURAL right does a *spouse* have to impose his wishes?

The spouse, under both natural and civil law, is automatically his spouse's legal guardian.

811 posted on 06/16/2005 11:42:15 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: MHGinTN
... we have a need for links to the data regarding the ME when he was assigned in the Schiavo case (his history that was posted on FR) and for the link to the videos of Terri from 1992/1993 beside the lake.

Marvin, I found a little- but not as much as I thought I would... part of the problem was the sheer volume of information- my 300+ replies within my post had multiple links, which led to more links often with hundreds of replies to them.

I found a little about the ME, nothing about the video of Terri by the lake, but one video ( above the double line ) that I had seen but forgotten about.

I tried searching FR for "Thogmartin" and got only a few returns- possibly a search engine different from Yahoo! would yield more results?

Anyway, here's what I found:


Some background:
 
Useful documents here:
 A Story of what Judge Greer did..
 
The Empire Journal  has an interesting report on the autopsy report here
 
 Autopsy results in the morning
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1422641/posts
 
 September 2002 neurologist William Hammesfahr report
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aq5f3F6dhsi9U1%40individual.net
In the spring of 2000, three physicians, including
Dr. Jay Carpenter, who is a former Chief of
Medicine at Morton Plant Hospital, filed affidavits
after observing Ms. Schiavo. All three physicians
stated that it is visually apparent that Ms Schiavo
is able to swallow and, in fact, does swallow her
own saliva.
 
 Code Blue Blog answers question regarding this case:
http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/04/terri_schiavo_r.html
( see the sidebar on left at CB page for related links )
 
  Terri Schiavo: Judicial Murder -- This is the video that should be shown on the news everynight - it is even more powerful than the balloon video.
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm
You need Real Player to watch this, available free on the internet. This is not reflex action - she heard the doctor, she opened her eyes as wide as she could to impress him.
Even Fox news has ignored this clip.
 
 Description of the complete 4 hours of video:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Tampabay/Schiavo_tapes__snippe.shtml 
 
 
==================================================
 
The ME:
 http://justiceforfloridaseniors.org/abusenfraud/index.php?p=10

Medical Examiner Thogmartin was hired after his predecessor, Ms. Woods, was smeared
by McCabe and the county commissioners over her Scientology/Lisa McPherson murder
findings.
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/
McCabe then led the nomination and hiring committees, chose Thogmartin (who had been
employed by Palm Beach County since graduation),
 
 www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1376020/posts
Similar pages

812 posted on 06/16/2005 11:43:46 AM PDT by backhoe (Just an old Keyboard Cowboy, ridin' the trackball into the Sunset...)
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To: malakhi

"'but wouldn't that make him "terrible" according to the "rite-to-die" people to put her thru all that agony for years?'

"It is no more their business than it is the business of those on the "right-to-life" side. Private. Family. Decisions."


But you were calling Schindlers on the carpet for the same. If they all still agreed, wouldn't you be disgusted by them ALL for "ignoring her wishes"?


813 posted on 06/16/2005 11:44:12 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: malakhi

The question was, "does XXXX have a right to impose *HIS* wishes....", not, who the GUARDIAN is. (And I stated NATURAL rights so there is no question or confusion w/made-up "rights" which are really privileges.) And there is no such thing as a "natural law" regarding "guardians".


There is NO NATURAL right to kill ANYone (and indeed, I'm assuming here that MS brought up the "Terri wanted to die" for his convenience, not cuz she actually said it). Murder is a violation of natural rights, regardless of your relationship.


814 posted on 06/16/2005 11:49:13 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: ClancyJ

"If you choose not to see that - fine. That does not stop me from seeing it."

I see a lot of things and strive to put them into context. For example, just because Cheney is Pres. of the Senate does not make him one in cahoots with Reid.


815 posted on 06/16/2005 12:03:29 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: Trinity_Tx

"What on earth are you talking about? lol And you call me confused?"

I have a vision... it's a woman in TX banging her head against the wall. ROFLMAO

Hang in there.


816 posted on 06/16/2005 12:06:50 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: Kretek; MEGoody

"The manner of death is different from the cause of death.
I don't see the difference. Can you explain?"

In more explicit terms:
What is the CAUSE and MANNER of death on the death certificate?
The cause of death is the specific reason that a person dies, for example a stab wound to the abdomen, gunshot wound to the head, asthma, atherosclerotic heart disease, blunt impacts to the head and torso, hanging, drug intoxication or AIDS. These are only several examples. The manner of death falls under one of several categories: homicide, accident, suicide, natural or undetermined. Some jurisdictions utilize another category, therapeutic complication. The cause and manner of death are always listed on the death certificate.

What is the MECHANISM of death?
The mechanism of death is the physiologic reason for a person's death. Etiologically, it is nonspecific, and does not specify the underlying or proximate cause of death. It is generally not placed on the death certificate. Examples are sepsis, shock, electrical irritability of the heart or brain, seizures, exsanguination, cardiac tamponade, pulmonary thromboemboli, and asphyxia.
http://www.forensiconline.com/generallink.htm#a27
Great FAQ post by a "Joseph I. Cohen, M.D., Forensic Pathologist"


817 posted on 06/16/2005 12:11:24 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: ClancyJ
"Seems we have Michael's relatives or even Michael himself posting here. No wonder the rage by some on FR."

Just as likely her parents and friends? The topic is the autopsy and much of the discussion is off topic, irrelevant to the autopsy, a rehash of that which cannot be changed no matter how much people talk about it.
818 posted on 06/16/2005 12:16:04 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: Saundra Duffy

"Terri was alive and healthy"

How do you define healthy?


819 posted on 06/16/2005 12:22:54 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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To: Freedom Dignity n Honor

"So that argument is moot."

No it begs for common sense in the face of reality.


820 posted on 06/16/2005 12:26:42 PM PDT by Smartaleck
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