(Islamic Society of North America) ISNA Condemns the Terrorist Attacks in London

Plainfield, Indiana- We note with deep sadness the unfortunate events of this morning in London, England. We condemn such acts of mindless violence that violate the standards of Islam, as well as, of all faiths.

It is regrettable to note that a short-lived website has allegedly claimed responsibility for this reprehensible act and that website purported to link itself with a so-called Muslim group. Such a situation does not bode well for Britain's Muslims who maintain positive relations with their government and are active participants in British public life.

Irrespective of the sociopolitical implications, this act violates the Islamic principles of the sanctity of life and the safety and security of innocent civilians.

The British Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks has aptly stated: "It is not the weapon of the weak against the strong but the rage of the angry against the defenseless and innocent. It is an evil means to an evil end."

The Islamic Society of North America expresses its fullest condemnation of this unwarranted act of terrorism and offers its condolences to those who have lost their loved ones. May God grant all the strength to bear this loss.

Doug, it would appear that in your case, Al-Qaida has been successful in driving a wedge between good folks like you, and the majority of Muslims in the U.S., and that is really sad. This is the perfect time for you to have this dialog with your Muslim co-workers. I'm sure that they share our horror of the recent events in London.

Sadly, your knowledge of the history of the Quran is very shallow. It is just like that of those who take something out of context from the Old Testament in order to justify behaviors like that of the Third Reich. In fact, just about every religion has been abused as such. Have you ever heard of "The Crusades?"

Several weeks after 9/11, I wrote letters to both CAIR and ISNA, demanding to know why their organizations had failed to clearly denounce those terrorists who claim to have acted in the name of Islam. At the time they were worried about a backlash, but slowly learned that their silence was wrong. I am satisfied by their quick responses to this recent tragedy.

Your suggestion that they round up these miscreants makes me laugh. Do you think that most mosques have a list of local terrorists? Come on, get real! That said, it was nice of a local Muslim in nearby Lodi (CA) to tip off the FBI about some strange goings on there.

There are literally millions of American citizens who are Muslims, just like my second cousins. They are engineers, teachers, store owners and hair-dressers who share the same feelings as the rest of us regarding this tragedy, though, sadly, they are loathe to disclose their religion to others because of that wedge that you and many others are allowing the terrorists to place there.

George, you are a smart guy. This is the time to talk to your Muslim co-workers and neighbors. Ask them questions, engage in debate, tell them your perceptions of their religion. You will all learn something!

"George, you are a smart guy. This is the time to talk to your Muslim co-workers and neighbors. Ask them questions, engage in debate, tell them your perceptions of their religion. You will all learn something!"

I know what the perceptions involve. I have many years of study under my belt. Yes I have book shelfs with history books on the Crusades, the falls church of Rome, the geopolitcal power struggles both at Rome and Constantinople, the histories of all Europe, early histories of Egypt, Akadians, Summrirans, Hittites, the lists go on and on .....
the Arabs, and Islam. Yes I am smart. Yes I have to some degree spoken and shared religouse believes with my Muslim friends, of past. I no longer live in the area I did.
I have read much on all the things the Muslim scholars have claimed to make the OT/NT look like it is corrupt. And having a good understanding of my Christian religion based on some 25 years of often in depth study, I can read stuff in Koran and personally see how off based it is. How Mahummad twisted things as he picked up bits of information from the Jews and Christians he then often later either killed or put under subjection to his desires. On and on.
I don't speak from a view point where I just picked up some little articles at some web site.

You should have paid attention more closely with what my words asked of the good doctor. If you did I don't see how you could make a statment like "Sadly, your knowldege of the history of the Quran is very shallow". I take nothing sir,
out of context. I wonder how aware you are that there are many western scholars who speak many dialects of the Arabic language, and have years of study in how to read various forms of Arabic, and have spent years studying the Quran and Hadith, and are now starting to shed and entirely different view then some of us where lead to believe by reading books lets say produced some twenty years back. And even if my English translation of the Koran, I use the electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

Where not how should I say a very good translation compared to some versions in a given dialetc of Arabic, there are verses that leave no doubt, not the slightest doubt, as to their meaning. Islam, can no longer make any excuses. It has been exposed.

Sir. Please answer this for me. If there are no verses in the Koran and the "traditions" and other early works on Islam that make it totally clear that every faithful true believer must go forth and bring all infidels into total subjugation, if they do not submit they must be killed, then where pray tell do these Satanic ideas come from?

What book? Don't use the Crusades and the OT as examples.
Your arguments will not go far with anyone that is learned in these matters. As for the NT and all Christian teachings. You will not find a single sentence that says for someone to be stoned to death, nor harmed in any way. Right?
Have you read through NT? So again, don't assume what you have been told, or may have in a superfilous manner read a few things, think in any way the Crusades had anything to do with true Christiantiy. This is simply crap propogated through the centuries for the un-learned.

But getting back to the question at hand. Regardless of what I may ask someone who perhaps follows a religion and most probably in most cases, never really studied it in detail, this goes for many so called Christians, etc., I pull no punches nor mean to be un-fair, what would would I expect go gain in real knowledge from them? What they been told and never have verified lets say for a ten year period of study, then comparing it closely with other religions?
Obviously religion 101 in most any college in this land is but a very small and most often totally misleading venture to say the least.
So I can appreciate your suggestions. Fine I have no problem with that. But the questions go un-answered. Why do not
Muslim organizations in America start to take an active rule in denouncing the evil works done by Immans in this country to fire up individuals, no differently in essence then say some wahabbi cleric in Saudi Arabia would do. And why are they not looking carefully in just who is teaching here.
And why are good peoples that know who in thier mosque are being conditioned to do bad things not coming forth and tipping off the local authorities. Don't they as American citizens or long time residence perhaps with green cards reaping all kinds of free benifits from the tax payers have a moral obligation to come forth?
That is what I asked the good doctor.

Finally. You asked. "Do you think that most mosques have a list of local terrorists?" Answer. You are either naive or being how should I say it, crafty, in wording it that way.
But lets say you really are simply naive. My answer is.
Yes. Because this is where probably 90% or more of them will show up. In a mosque. It is not difficult to understand such a simple concept as that right? Now it may not take the form of a "list". But surely just based on the mid-eastern culture, anyone showing up at a mosque will be approached. Friendships offered. New people are welcomed. People notice differences, nuiances of how an individual behaves. But surely in the cases where known or suspect mosques are harboring or conditioning people to eventually join cells and or perhaps carry out an individual act of terror, there will be a mental list and or a paper list.
But I am going to simply assume your question was sincere and honest in it's intent.

In closing. I shall admit something I did not bring out in the letter to the doctor. My Lebanese neighbor Araf, though I genuinely liked, and he showed the same affection, as well as his wife and daughter toward me, did not exactly admire Americans by any means. And during the first Gulf war I could not help but notice in off the fly remarks that Saddam was going to put a real hurt on the US military. When Saddam's army was wiped out in less then four days, and all his military defense and communication networks where taken out and all his airforce that tried to get airborne let alone fight where shot down with ease, Araf was not in the mood for a long time to want to even look at me. Araf had some quite strong feelings about Jews and America. But he felt compelled to have his family all located here, given green cards etc., and milk the system as best as he could.
When ever I would talk about how truely wonderfull the Lord God truly is, all the blessings He provides, his graciousness, and often very fatherly help provided in times of need, and prayers answered. Araf would remain quite quite, as well as some of my other Arab and other mid-eastern friends. They did not seem to have any idea what the heck I was talking about. So sir, by kindly interactions, and observations, I believe I have really to some degree gotten a rather clear idea as how my friends approach the Lord Creator of all things. Obviously you know what I derived from this. To them He Who IS, is a far distant non approachable God. Not the God of Abraham and Jesus the SON of God.
But we departed friends some three years later when I moved.
Hope I may have provided you a little insight into a few things I may be aware of.

Wow, I am humbled by a most impressive response! I am glad that there are thoughtful Freepers who know more about religious history than I do.

You are obviously well aware that almost any religion can be perverted as such, and people should speak out when they see it happening. This is easy for us because the Muslim faith is a minority, and we are fortunate to have freedom of speech. Those in 1930s German weren't so lucky. It is hard to imagine, but that was our Christian faith on the stake less than a century ago. Even today, our country is divided amongst religious lines on some issues. Fortunately, there isn't much disagreement about the fate deserved by terrorists.

Yes, there are plenty of folks like your neighbor Araf who see the world through a strange lens (and indeed some worse), but there are plenty more good Muslims like my relatives who are normal folks just like you and I. We even celebrate Christmas together (though I'll admit to being generally clueless about their observances).

Debate like this is finally starting to force the Muslim community to address these issues, albeit too slowly for my taste. A look at today's leading articles on Al-Jazeera demonstrates that quite clearly. While my relatives are okay, maybe your neighbor is a fence-sitter. Talk to him. Ask him what good (in a secular sense) can come from the slaughter of innocent civilians. Then ask him about those portions of the Quran that you know so well. Ask him how he thinks the Muslim community and its representatives should respond. And tell him that he was smart to choose to live in the best country on earth!

I do apologize for my crafty wording regarding mosques and terrorists. Yes, that was indeed intentional, and you are of course correct about the correlation, but that does not show causality. Black people are disproportionatelly represented in the prison population, but that doesn't mean that every black person is predisposed towards criminal activity.

It is my hope that the majority here communicates to the Muslim community not only what we expect from them, but to understand that there is no gray area in the minds of real Americans when it comes to terrorists. There is only one acceptable option.

As I had indicated, I no longer am in contact with these people because I lost my job and had to relocate. As you
pointed out your relatives of the Muslim faith may be more
trustworthy, down to earth, and reliable people then some
folks you perhaps grew up with or now work with etc..
I shall withhold from making statements to try to prove a point, lets say where many Muslims are not aware of some of the verses that admonish them to go forth and conquere and subjugate the infidel. I realize often OT references to the Lord instructing his people to drive off and or kill some given ethnic group, say the Elomites, often is used as an execuse by some to indicate that there is little difference between what Islam and Hebrews did. But after a close study, one will see a vast difference, in why the Hebrew nation was instructed to rid their land from pagans verse subjugating them. We do not see the Lord's choosen people enslaving others. Quite the contrary. The acts where always issued in order to keep the Hebrew nation "clean" from foreign influence. Put another way. Do not intermingle with us, we serve the living God and do not want your rituals and believe system in our mist, for it will corrupt our people.
Diametrically opposed to this concept, Islam's commission is to subdue all, and convert them. All must obey Allah. And if they do not they are subject to death. And so integrated into the Arab mind is the fact that their cousins are their mortal enemies. There is no way out of this mess. And surely if you have made a terse study into Arab history you are aware of how they try to cover up their second rate status due to the expulsion of Abraham's first son Ismael from the tribe. Ishmael as promised would be the father of a great nation, and his seed starting with his son's
Ne-ba'joth, ke'dar, Ad'be-el, and Mib'sam branch out into the syrian highlands, and southern regions of now Jordan, southward into what is now Saudi Arabia. Then some time later after Sara passed on took his concubine wife Ketu'rah
and produced she had six sons, Zimran,Jok'shan,Me'dan, Mid'ian,Ish-bak, and Shu'ah. Where for instance the peoples in the tribe of Mid'ian migrated to the Gulf of Aqaba area then southward along the eastern coast of the Red Sea to those cities such as Al Madinah (Medina), Makkah(Mecca),Jiddah(Jedda), etc., downward to Aden at the Gulf of Aden. In short, the cousins moved outward and did not associate with the sons of Abraham (tribes of Israel) that came to be once Isaac's son Jacob produced his seed.
As best as can be imagined, the distant cousins we know refere to Arabs, from the very beginning held a grudge, because they where not accepted as the true seed of the Lord God's choosen people. They where the "rejects". So the seed of contempt where sown early on. And as one studies the exploits of the Arabs, Mahummad's raise to power etc., clearly this theme of rejection is the underlining driving force as to how their behavior patterns where exercised. I don't know how else to put it. Within this very sad situation, we see Mahummad and most likely close associates picking up knowledge from Hebrews and Christians who lived in the areas around his operational territory, as well as his early exploits northward towards Syria as his new found power base started their quest to conquere. He and others integrated theology from these two religions into his own with the many obviouse modifications. Ancient Hebraic fables such as how Adam and Eve observed how a raven buried it's mate by pushing earth/leaves over it, now can be read in the Koran as how Able was buried. Now to a Muslim this is the word of God. Yet nowhere in the OT book of Genesis does one find such a method of burial. It came from a fable. But to the belivers of Islam, they have been convinced that only the Qu'ran is the true book of God. In their zeal to accept that the book is actually holy, remember much of what you read in books on Islam, always bring out the concept where Islam rejects Icons, Idols etc., yet their rituals and every day actions show otherwise. Much of the Islamic world in it's ignorance are lead to believe no infidel can touch or read the Qu'ran before submitting to Allah and the words of his prophet, right? Think about that. As I said before, one is required to accept without having the oppurtunity to study what they are supposed to accept. Their holy book is an ICON to them, in many ways. Just look at all the fuss was made over the alleged abuse of it, at Gitmo. They kiss and hold images of past gone Caliphs, Immans etc., in high esteem. Yet at the same time it can be shown that many versions of the Qu'ran are routinely destroyed in Saudi Arabia if found to not be of a given versian the wahabist insist is the only real Qu'ran.
But enough of this. It leads nowhere in particular. I shall leave it at your discreation to become more familiar with what Islam represents, and it's altimate goals.
I would only add, that I for one am often leary of just hopping around the Internet to find sites that provide information on Islam. As is always the case, one can find sites that are just bashing Islam and provide in-accurate information. And I do realize it is so easy to obtain false pictures that at first appear to be somewhat true. Only through serious research methods can one perhaps arrive at a accurate understanding of how any religion operates. And in this I would be misleading if I pretended to fit into this category.
One thing though I am certain of. Until a large effort is made by the various branches of Islam to take a very honest look at what should be believed and what can be found to be in gross error, and then re-educated their constiuency, the problem is not going to go away. For the record, I have in the past year or so read some articles, sorry I cannot provide links, they where in passing, where some clerics in Egypt for one place, are starting to admit a carefull review of the many things written in the Qu'ran must be carefully scrutinized and if found worthless or distructive, then omitted from the Qu'ran. However, no matter how serious they might be in such an endeavor. It will have little effect unless they make all public domain. For again, many of the Islamic faith, like any other faith, are not in the position to apply a indepth study of their book. And there is so much written in say the Hadiths (the traditions), that attempt to explain much of what is written in the Qu'ran that also would have to come under carefull scrutiny, that these things may never bear fruit. For the record these very things quite a few hundred years ago, where attempted by some Islamic scholars but fell by the was side. It is hard enough for them to try to find common ground on basic believes, concerning who to follow in the context of where does the final authority exist. Much like we find say between the Roman Catholic Church and the various Protestant Churches. Same deal. But the essence of what I write simply opens the question as to why do Muslims think Islam is so pure, the final religion so to speak, when it can be found to be quite a mess in so many ways. I pretty much have a good idea of the answer. And I think the person I addressed the letter to, even has a better idea as to what Islam really represents. Jesus proclamied the good news, and commisioned his diciples to go forth and preach that all can be saved and please God by doing certain things. Nowhere in the OT/NT do we find the commission to go forth and conquer. The polar opposite is found in Islam. It demands it's subjects go forth and conquer then subjugate. We simply cannot get around these simply facts.
Have a pleasant day. Sorry for the verbosity.

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