Posted on 10/06/2005 5:38:05 PM PDT by voletti
India does not produce enough computer engineers and those it does are good at theory but not very well equipped to handle the practical aspects, according to Microsoft Corporation's Chief Technical Officer Craig Mundie, who is on a visit to India.
"India produces a lot of engineers. But the production of computer science engineers is low, pro rata.
"Computer engineers are more into theory and less in managing businesses, building businesses or writing source codes, the key to software development," Mundie told Business Standard.
Microsoft has a large number of Indian software engineers on its rolls in India as well as abroad. Out of the 2,000 people working for Microsoft in India, a sizeable proportion comprises software engineers. India produced 401,791 engineers in 2003-04, of which 35 per cent were computer engineers. The number increased to 464,743 in 2004-05, of which 31 per cent were computer engineers.
According to Mundie, the problem with the engineers can be attributed to policy issues. Universities in India, he said, did not get proper funding for research and were not directed towards software development. "The lack of trained staff is addressed by firms through internal arrangements for proper training," he said.
Besides, he said, India did not have enough software companies nor were enough companies developing India-specific applications.
"There are so few Indian software companies developing local software. That is a negative reinforcement, because there is no local software and no new applications," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at us.rediff.com ...
General Electric is reporting good success, but it looks to me like it's because they've sunk mongo bucks into establishing a viable management presence in India. It isn't a market for dabblers, apparently.
Good only in theory?
Oh I guess thats why all the jobs are moving over to India. (/sarc)
Freepmail me if you want on/off.
"You can't get good software out of India for the same reason Mexico never wins in the Olympics: Everyone who can run, swim, or jump is already here."
Wrong. That would have been the case 10 years ago. But consider that its become quite difficult to get h1b's now and the salary level in India has sky rocketed in the past 5 years. So its certainly possible to get good talent there now. But you get what you pay for. India is a competitive job market for employers.. even for microsoft. If they cant get the right sort of people like GE does then they dont know how to run their operation in India.
http://www.jfwtc.ge.com/aboutus/landing.html
or here is Oracle in India
http://www.oracle.com/global/in/pressroom/factsheet.html
I find most Phillopino's to be rather in sync when it comes to them understanding American tastes and customs...then again they do have a Catholic/Christian heritage and culture and many speak passable English as a second language. They learn to jive quickly with the American psyche. Not that I like what Dell is doing, but the tech support will probably improve somewhat till it plateaus some-where in the mediocre to fair range! Plus, as Phillopino's speak spanish, Dell gets help with its Latin American customers...a win win for them...should help them in the South American Market as well!
<< Let the India-baiting FReepers let some steam off, I guess. >>
That's true, it might so let.
But we India-LOVING Truth Tellers might very reasonably have a dog in this hunt, too.
My experience, gained during 45+ years spent mainly in Asia and Africa and of having worked closely with Indians during all of that time is that the chacteristics referred to in this piece and specific to computers extend over every aspect of the Indian approach to the technical.
When approaching the edge of the envelope, many if not most Indian [And other third-world] pilots quickly run out of options and become ego-driven pilot-costumed, pilot-seat occupying passengers. Indian aircraft and even auto mechanics very rarely show any imagination and/or initiative when the solution is to be found in option five of a four part multiple choice problem.
And all of these handicaps are horrendously aggravated by the unimaginable sized hesperophobic chips on their shoulders that make it impossible to accept that the loathed and scapegoated ["Colonialist"] white man might both understand their deficiencies and their problems -- and have their solutions to hand.
Say what you will, but attrition is so bad we have to hire two or three Indians for every position, because half of them will be gone before the project is completed.
Part of that may be due to the salary situation. But if salaries are going up that fast, outsourcing won't make sense for long. It doesn't really make any sense right now except that most executives aren't as good as they think they are at weighing cost and benefit.
Poor talent can be salvaged by management, but it will never be as good or efficient as great talent.
It isn't that Indians are any more stupid or untalented than Americans either. When managers go to India, they are adopting a "buy in bulk, to hell with quality" mentality. The star developers they have back home and count on to make things work jump ship pretty quickly because nobody likes polishing turds.
I liked the quote of someone in chain of msgs who said "if you ask them to pick the correct answers of 4 choices they will get that right but if its the 5th choice they dont".
I agree with that but I dont think that problem is there with Indian Engineers alone. That is a problem with Engineers in general. I know because I teach them here in USA.
As a professor my main problem is to get Engineers to understand that sometimes the solution is not within the tool set you have and you have search outside.
Here is an example of how students (and it is students whether in India and in US) have trouble.
Sometimes I give multiple choice (I dont like doing that but sometimes I have to) quizzes and sometimes I give them 4 choices and 2 more choices which say "All of the above" and "None of the above". Without fail all my students (whether in India or USA) explode. They hate ambiguity.
I also give exams where the answer for all questions is "A" :). Thats another thing they dont like.
So for those of you who bristle at the suggestion that Indians dont like ambiguity, I say get over it, its true.
For those of you who are using this to claim "superiority" over Indian engineer, I say go to the nearest US engineering college and take a look at its graduates.
In medicine, we have the opposite problem.
For example, in boards, we get a patient profile and then are given MCQ as to which is the best solution. Problem is that a patient has so many variables, it is ridiculous to pick any one simplistic solution. The answer for a patient is often none of the above. But, that would make exams impossible to judge.
This is in the building that fired 250 employees 2 weeks ago for falsifing expense reports.
The guy leading the team meeting must've been a jerk.
Or the guy who was telling you this tale must've been exaggerating, for effect.
Most likely, its both.
Thanks for posting that. Some perspective was needed in that thread.
In any case, I'm a card carrying Indophile and am happy to know Indian engineers aren't congenitally disadvantaged in some way relative to the rest of the world's engineers.
"Say what you will, but attrition is so bad we have to hire two or three Indians for every position, because half of them will be gone before the project is completed."
That means you arent paying them enough to retain them.
"When managers go to India, they are adopting a "buy in bulk, to hell with quality" mentality"
Now thats a problem. And thats why I said Microsoft hasnt yet understood how to do business in India. Outsourcing only makes sense when you can get the best value foryour money which is when you can hire great people for half or 3/4 cost. Not trying to get whatever you can get for 1/4 the cost.
Exactly. The problem is 1) at 3/4 cost, it isn't worth it, and 2) management really wants that 1/4 cost.
I have worked with Indians for a long time. They are industrious, intelligent, and they don't like getting ripped off any more than anyone else. And just like anyone, if you telegraph the fact that you are going to exploit them you will find they will just exploit you first.
That is why most outsourcing efforts fail: Management is trying to get something for nothing and figures they are dealing with a bunch of ignorant third worlders who just happen to be able to code.
The way I see it.. even at 3/4 cost its worth it simply because there is a finite number of very good quality people in the world. They are the top 1 - 2% people and if we try to hire more and more of them in just 1 country.. any country.. their wages go too high and it makes them less affordable. By hiring in different geographies we can hire more of them at more sustainable prices.
Unfortunately MGT in the outsourcing companies are looking for large cost cuts and immediate improvements to thebottom line and hence the problem of quality.
Lol right its kind of same every where really.
I am right now more concerned about what I see as the dilution of education standards in USA especially in schools. The students coming in have very poor math skills and Universities are diluting/lowering their math requirements to graduate the students.
I was told that Math and Operations are not really a major component anymore and "soft" skills are more important for Business Majors.
I will not deny that soft skills are important but you dont increase focus on one set of skills by diluting focus on the other.
Just today I came out of a meeting where some professors who were consulting with a major power company said "We dont want to use Math to get precision because the students we graduate who get jobs and become managers in these companies wont understand them"
I am fresh out with a PhD and I guess its my turn to loose all the illusions I have about Universities in America :)
I am really not in favor of Multiple choice questions and I avoid them as much as possible. Usually my exams are problems, essays and short answers another thing which students dont like.
That is strange because you think they will be able to express themselves. But the education system, does not let a professor continue in this way. Most professors use MCQ because of the pressure they are under to publish and other activities which are demanded of them by Universities without the kind of support they need.
So MCQ's are an easy way out. I have been trying to avoid it but as I spend more mid nights grading papers, MCQs are becoming more and more attractive. Especially since Univs dont reward you as much for being a great teacher as the number of papers you publish.
I worked for awhile at a remote mine in Indonesia. the engineers from the main islands were very book smart but had no practical experience, common sense, or problem solving abilities ("automotrons" we called them). The local tribesmen that I used for helpers were far more industrious and innovative.
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