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One Woman's Choice
The Washington Post ^ | November 15, 2005 | Maria Eftimiades

Posted on 11/16/2005 3:59:31 AM PST by Eepsy

"So when do you go for the abortion?'' my friend asked, her voice sympathetic.

"Wednesday,'' I replied, and then hurriedly got off the phone. I called Mike, my boyfriend, in tears, complaining about how inconsiderate people are, how no one thinks before they speak. The truth was, until I heard the word "abortion,'' it hadn't occurred to me that I was actually having one.

...Story continued at link

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; contraception; downssyndrome; postabortivewomen
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To: Aquinasfan
Aside from total Chastity, humans are going to have sex outside of marriage. Until they find a partner to marry and produce children with, would it not be better to use contraception? In the perfect world you speak of, no one would have sex outside of marriage. However, we know, humans are not perfect.
51 posted on 11/16/2005 5:24:06 AM PST by wolfcreek
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To: Day Kay
And yes, adultery is any sex outside the bonds of marriage.

No, it most certainly is not.

You are talking about fornication, also bad, but not one of the Big Ten.

52 posted on 11/16/2005 5:24:14 AM PST by Jim Noble (Non, je ne regrette rien)
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To: peyton randolph
Should have used birth control? But why!? These two really wanted a baby--but only a certain sort of baby, not the one God chose to give them. Part of their reasoning, after all, was this:
We'd say "when we go to the hospital'' or "the appointment" or "after the procedure, we can try again.''
I once met a couple like this outside an abortion clinic. To counter the signs the demonstrators carried, the guy made a sign of his own, worded something like this: "We tried for four years to have a baby, but this one has Down Syndrome! Have a little compassion!" Apparently slicing up the baby and tossing it into the trash seemed compassionate to them.
53 posted on 11/16/2005 5:24:26 AM PST by madprof98
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To: Aquinasfan

That is a derivative argument and awful shaky ground to set up a prohibition. By that logic, one could ban cars because of the temptation to speed, especially for the young.

I'll ask you the same question. What Bible verse prohibits contraception?


54 posted on 11/16/2005 5:25:58 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: imintrouble
especially the Down Syndrome group who were great communicators, enjoyed showing us their crafts at a moment's notice, and seemed to grateful to have a busy day ahead of them, enjoying life's simple pleasures. To be alive....and busy.

I've read similar things, that people with Down's Syndrome are happy and bring joy to others.

True happiness is living in the moment, something most of us cannot do (always worried about the past or the future).

55 posted on 11/16/2005 5:26:01 AM PST by proud American in Canada
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To: Aquinasfan
You just don't have the guts to pull the trigger.

No triggers.

I'm sure they'll use lethal injection.

56 posted on 11/16/2005 5:26:24 AM PST by Jim Noble (Non, je ne regrette rien)
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To: sweetliberty
I too, was raised from age eleven, by my Grandparents. I guess my original point was people need to HAVE children while they're young (20's 30's) to avoid some of the heartbreaking results experienced by this couple.
57 posted on 11/16/2005 5:33:24 AM PST by wolfcreek
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To: madprof98
I once met a couple like this outside an abortion clinic. To counter the signs the demonstrators carried, the guy made a sign of his own, worded something like this: "We tried for four years to have a baby, but this one has Down Syndrome! Have a little compassion!" Apparently slicing up the baby and tossing it into the trash seemed compassionate to them.

I'd love to ask them how it's compassionate to kill somebody just because he's not as smart as they'd like.

58 posted on 11/16/2005 5:47:55 AM PST by Capriole (I don't have any problems that can't be solved by more chocolate or more ammunition.)
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To: Eepsy

These word really bother me
"We don't want a life like that for our child,"

I don't want a STROLLER like that for our child
I don't want a PET like that for our child

Substitute anything and the child is still alive-when they are actually denying ANY type of life for that child.

Another example of sanitizing the killing.


59 posted on 11/16/2005 5:54:42 AM PST by Katydidnt (If you can read this thank a teacher. Since you're reading it in English, thank a Marine.)
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To: yer gonna put yer eye out

Second that.

DA740


60 posted on 11/16/2005 5:55:37 AM PST by DA740
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To: sauropod

Actually, it's "fornication." Promiscuity if fornication with multiple partners.


61 posted on 11/16/2005 6:02:38 AM PST by wouldntbprudent
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To: Eepsy
Maria Eftimiades, You are a baby killer. Your child deserved better than to be conceived by you.

I pray that your guilt never fades and that the pain remains as sharp as can be until you repent totally and admit the murder you performed

62 posted on 11/16/2005 6:09:25 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Herodian; sauropod
As many women know, many prenatal tests have high false positives.

My sister-in-law was told, during her second pregnancy, that she had a very high probability of giving birth to a Downs baby. From what she told me of that office visit, there was almost an assumption that she would choose to abort.

My niece is now twelve years old and smart as a whip. I'm glad her mother decided to laugh at the odds.

63 posted on 11/16/2005 6:15:31 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Aquinasfan
Very reminiscent of NAZI tactics prior to WWII, wouldn't you say?
64 posted on 11/16/2005 6:21:27 AM PST by Laz711 (The Barbarians are in Rome)
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To: Eepsy
Only now do I understand how entirely personal the decision to terminate a pregnancy is and how wrong it feels to bring someone else's morality into the discussion.

Two points. One, there really is no "my morality" and "someone else's morality"; there's only morality based on correct reasoning and false morality based on incorrect reasoning. Two, wasn't "bringing someone else's morality into the discussion" precisely what she did when she killed her child without giving the child and "his morality" any say in the matter?

All of the pro-aborts' arguments amount to special pleading -- "a woman ought to be able to kill the baby in her womb ... why ... just because, dang it!" They can construct no coherent reasoning why killing during gestation is legitimate, but killing after birth -- whether at age 5 minutes or 5 years -- isn't.

65 posted on 11/16/2005 6:26:23 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: imintrouble
Thank you for sharing this wonderful story.

I have a nephew wioth Downs Syndrome. He is a very happy and joyful young man (he is 18). He has few language skills, and he has serious physical problems, but he loves his life.

The thought of not allowing him to live because he has Downs is monstrous.

One more thing -- because of him, the members of my family have experienced a joy they would not have known if he had not come into the world. My sister and brother-in-law, as well as their other children, have learned the joy of sacrificing self for another person.

66 posted on 11/16/2005 6:36:37 AM PST by chs68
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To: Eepsy

Just to point out that, according to the website http://www.womens-health.co.uk/downs.asp, false positives on Downs Syndrome tests range from 2.7% to 7.6% depending on the original risk.

And here is a link to a Downs Syndrome Society in Cincinatti that currently has a waiting list of over a hundred pre-approved families waiting to adopt a Downs Syndrome Child:

http://www.triangledownsyndrome.org/adoption.htm


67 posted on 11/16/2005 6:43:34 AM PST by Eepsy
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To: Eepsy

The baby would surely have had a better shot at a normal life and proper loving care, had he been unafflicted and the Mother a Down syndrome adult.

All murderers must convince themselves that dying was best for their victems.


68 posted on 11/16/2005 7:07:06 AM PST by F.J. Mitchell (Tag line suspended until my brain returns from vacation)
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To: Eepsy
I posted simply to get my tagline on this thread.
69 posted on 11/16/2005 7:24:13 AM PST by gooleyman ( What about the baby's "RIGHT TO CHOOSE"?????? I bet the baby would chose LIFE.)
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To: Laz711
Very reminiscent of NAZI tactics prior to WWII, wouldn't you say?

Yes. Just don't make me look at the ovens...

70 posted on 11/16/2005 7:42:06 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: wolfcreek
Aside from total Chastity, humans are going to have sex outside of marriage. Until they find a partner to marry and produce children with, would it not be better to use contraception?

Tough question, but the tough answer is no. Without consequences, people are more likely to engage in sex, especially sex outside of marriage. Paul VI predicted what would happen to society with readily available means of artificial birth control (see my post above).

71 posted on 11/16/2005 7:46:03 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: wouldntbprudent

You're right. Thanks.


72 posted on 11/16/2005 7:47:52 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: sauropod
That is a derivative argument and awful shaky ground to set up a prohibition. By that logic, one could ban cars because of the temptation to speed, especially for the young.

That's why it's paragraph #17 of a very solid natural law argument.

I'll ask you the same question. What Bible verse prohibits contraception?

Which Bible verse says that only evils that are explicitly stated in the Bible are truly evil?

Regardless, the sin of Onan is clear enough. At least it was to all Christians prior to 1929.

73 posted on 11/16/2005 7:49:13 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

A beautiful and perfect response!


74 posted on 11/16/2005 8:02:07 AM PST by Nea Wood (A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. Proverbs 13:22)
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To: Aquinasfan

The sin of Onan was that he disobeyed God's command to procreate if memory serves. He spilled his seed on the ground to prevent procreation. It was not the act itself that was wrong, it was the intention behind the act. Trying to build a logical bridge between this and contreceptives is akin to trying to build that famous bridge to the 21st century.

Contraceptives are not intrinsically evil. I'm not buying your argument.


75 posted on 11/16/2005 8:11:47 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: gooleyman
Re: your tag line

Yes, in most cases. But not in every case. There are severe chromosomal defects that result - if the baby makes it to term - in a very brief, painful existence. I don't really think anyone would choose that.

76 posted on 11/16/2005 8:16:12 AM PST by lugsoul
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To: Eepsy
I'm sure pro-lifers don't give you the right to grieve for the baby you chose not to bring into the world (another euphemism, although avoiding the word "abortion'' doesn't take any sting out of the decision to have one).

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Grieving for your baby is the first, most important part of healing. Teresa Burke has done plenty of research on this. Project Rachel, Rachel's Vineyard, these programs help women grieve their babies. Teresa Burke even recommends that a woman name her baby.

Little Johnny is no doubt looking down on his mother with pity right now. God bless her and bring her healing.

77 posted on 11/16/2005 8:19:31 AM PST by old and tired (Run Swanni, run!)
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To: LauraleeBraswell
No one is saying it's easy

But I won't say raising a DS child is harder than a mainstream kid.

When my son was small, I will concede it was slightly more difficult to take care of him than our other babies. He wore a diaper longer, needed to be carried longer, and was on the whole, more physically tiring for us than his siblings. But I still wouldn't call it difficult. And then, of course, there are the surgeries. My son, like many DS kids, had to undergo heart surgery three times. Surgery on a child is tough on any family.

However, and I say this with all sincerity - it would be easier (and more fulfilling) to have half a dozen Downs teenagers, than one average teen.

78 posted on 11/16/2005 8:31:43 AM PST by old and tired (Run Swanni, run!)
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To: DB

Your mother's right to not be inconvenienced supersedes your right to exist. /sarcasm


79 posted on 11/16/2005 8:41:25 AM PST by Ignatz (I misunderstood you correctly the first time.)
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To: Jim Noble

Adultery and fornication are used interchangeably in the Bible, so yes, the adultery on the "Big Ten" does include fornication.

Note the Savior did not make distinction between married and unmarried when he declared lust a form of adultery.


80 posted on 11/16/2005 8:44:48 AM PST by frgoff
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To: sauropod

Err, if use of contraceptives isn't a person trying to prevent procreation, what is? Now, if you're using a drug with contraceptive side effects to treat an illness, that's different. I do feel the person is morally obligated to abstain from relations while on said drug, however, because of the possible abortive effects contraceptives possess.

In other words, if a man or woman is recieving a treatment for, say, cancer that renders them sterile, there is no moral problem with them carrying on relations within marriage as there is no possiblity of conception or abortion, and the effect is the unintended consequence of a life or death decision. On the other hand, if a woman is taking the Pill as a remedy for unusually heavy menstruation (hopefully after being very sure it won't mask symptoms of a greater problem), she should abstain from relations as there is still the possibility of conceiving while on the drug, and the resultant fetus being aborted due to the unhospitable environment birth control creates in the womb.


81 posted on 11/16/2005 9:00:18 AM PST by Eepsy
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To: sauropod
The sin of Onan was that he disobeyed God's command to procreate if memory serves. He spilled his seed on the ground to prevent procreation. It was not the act itself that was wrong, it was the intention behind the act.

That's a stretch, and an example of the problem with Sola Scriptura. How could every Christian denomination have been wrong until 1929? What happened? Could rationalization have been involved?

More on Onanism/Birth Control

82 posted on 11/16/2005 9:01:11 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: peyton randolph

I'm getting married this May. Both my fiance and I are 39. We are going to try to have kids once we get married.

We are at higher risk of having a DS baby, but I don't care. I figure there are two ways to view being a parent:

1. THE NARCISSISTIC WAY

Your child is another one of your achievements. The talents and achievements of your child are your achievements and should therefore be broadcast widely. Your child's failings are a shame to you and should be hidden. Your child's worth is dependent on how he or she enhances your life.

2. THE GODLY WAY

A child is a gift from God. There is a reason God gave you this child. Your job is to care for the child and teach him or her right from wrong. The child is your responsibility, not your possession. Your child was created by God and is therefore worthy.

I figure I'll go with option #2.


83 posted on 11/16/2005 9:06:54 AM PST by Our man in washington
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To: Our man in washington
Congratulations on you impending nuptials. I agree with you one hundred percent.

There is one thing I'd like to add, however. If God doesn't bless you with a biological child, please consider adoption. I am an adoptive parent and an adoptive grandparent. My daughter just called us yesterday to tell us that their adoption agency (she's got two from Guatemala) has male babies waiting for homes. They're going to go ahead and adopt again and hope to have their new son home before the summer. There are many ways that God finds exactly the right parents for children.

84 posted on 11/16/2005 9:18:56 AM PST by old and tired (Run Swanni, run!)
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To: Eepsy
There's more to this story than meets the eye. She decided to get an abortion after an amnio test for Down's Syndrome popped positive. But amnio tests, if I'm not mistaken, are notorious for popping false positives. I've heard from dozens of parents who learned of a positive amnio test only to discover later, through other procedures, that it was a false positive.

I don't know how painful a decision this was for this woman, and I'm not going to point any fingers. But she should've definitely done more to confirm the positive amnio pop. I certainly hope she did and simply didn't make that part of the story.

85 posted on 11/16/2005 9:20:54 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: Our man in washington

Congrats on the impending nuptials. Unlike you, the writer of this article knew of the high risk yet went ahead pretending that there were no consequences to her actions. Once pregnant, she then decides to abort. If she and her boyfriend didn't want a Down's Syndrome child, they should have used birth control knowing the high risks involved due to their ages. To create a life and then destroy it was not a noble choice on her part. It was murder.


86 posted on 11/16/2005 9:33:24 AM PST by peyton randolph (Warning! It is illegal to fatwah a camel in all 50 states)
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To: Aquinasfan
How could every Christian denomination have been wrong until 1929?

How could every Christian denomincation have been wrong about slavery until two hundred years ago?

87 posted on 11/16/2005 9:33:44 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: old and tired

Thanks for the tip! If we aren't able to conceive, we probably will go with adoption.


88 posted on 11/16/2005 9:52:51 AM PST by Our man in washington
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To: Eepsy
Err, if use of contraceptives isn't a person trying to prevent procreation, what is?

Err, if it's not a specific response to a specific command of God.

89 posted on 11/16/2005 10:04:35 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: Aquinasfan

You are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

God gave us freedom. When Man formulate straditions or strictures that are justified through a derivative argument, Man is taking away the freedom that God has given.

AFA your sarcastic point about every Christian denomination being wrong until 1929, I would argue that many Church practices (indulgences, others) may have been believed for hundreds or thousands of years. But if they are not specifically addressed in the Bible, then they are inventions of Man.


90 posted on 11/16/2005 10:09:24 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: sauropod

"formulate straditions" = formulates traditions


91 posted on 11/16/2005 10:10:53 AM PST by sauropod ("The love that dare not speak its' name has now become the love that won't shut the hell up.")
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To: sauropod
But if they are not specifically addressed in the Bible, then they are inventions of Man.

The Bible itself doesn't claim that, so your test flunks itself.

92 posted on 11/16/2005 10:13:13 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Eepsy

This was the most disgusting display of selfishness I've ever read.


93 posted on 11/16/2005 10:16:46 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Eepsy
I'm sure pro-lifers don't give you the right to grieve for the baby you chose not to bring into the world (another euphemism, although avoiding the word "abortion'' doesn't take any sting out of the decision to have one).

*************

Yeah. Those nasty pro-lifers.

94 posted on 11/16/2005 10:21:19 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wolfcreek
In the perfect world you speak of, no one would have sex outside of marriage. However, we know, humans are not perfect.

What an ignorant thing to say.

I'm certianly not perfect but I haven't had sex outside of marriage and I'm 45.

So, what are you saying, people can just not control themselves?

95 posted on 11/16/2005 10:33:04 AM PST by It's me
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To: Jim Noble
And yes, adultery is any sex outside the bonds of marriage.

No, it most certainly is not.

You are talking about fornication, also bad, but not one of the Big Ten.

Nice way to rationalize sex outside of marriage.

96 posted on 11/16/2005 10:34:13 AM PST by It's me
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To: Eepsy
The truth was, until I heard the word "abortion,'' it hadn't occurred to me that I was actually having one.

Why do you think they keep calling it 'choice', sweetie?

97 posted on 11/16/2005 10:36:16 AM PST by Lizavetta
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To: sauropod
AFA your sarcastic point about every Christian denomination being wrong until 1929

It's not a sarcastic point at all. It's a logical argument. These denominations, all of them, claimed to be guided by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. So do today's Protestants. Yet both groups arrived at contradictory doctrines. So how can this contradiction be reconciled if "the Bible alone" is to be the final arbiter of truth?

98 posted on 11/16/2005 10:54:01 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: steve-b
How could every Christian denomincation have been wrong about slavery until two hundred years ago?

Not every denomination supported slavery. Christians brought an end to slavery, not atheists.

99 posted on 11/16/2005 10:59:07 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Eepsy
At 24, 30 and 36 my husband and I went through high risk pregnancies. With the last, we were asked if we wanted an amniocentesis "just in case". We emphatically denied it. The results would not have changed a thing. We are truly grateful for all three of our wonderful children.

My heart breaks for the loss of that innocent life.
100 posted on 11/16/2005 11:00:54 AM PST by leda (patton's brown eyed girl)
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