"Hoolow, piglet."
Posted on 11/16/2005 7:40:32 AM PST by Flavius
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in the mistaken belief that he was a suicide bomber was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international convention, The Daily Telegraph has learned.
The firing of hollow point ammunition into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, is believed to be the first use of the bullets by British police.
Hoolow-point bullets Hollow-point bullets: used at the discretion of police chiefs
It will re-ignite controversy around the shooting, at Stockwell Underground station, south London, on July 22.
Modern hollow point bullets are descendants of the expanding "dum dum" ammunition created by the British in an arsenal of the same name near Calcutta, in India, at the end of the 19th century and outlawed under the Hague Declaration of 1899.
The bullets, which expand and splinter on impact, were available to officers taking part in Operation Kratos, the national police drive against suspected suicide bombers which has been described as a "shoot to kill" policy.
Their issue was sanctioned after research suggested that they were an effective close-quarters ammunition for use against someone about to trigger a suicide bomb.
It is believed the decision was influenced by the tactics used by air marshals on passenger jets - where such bullets are designed to splinter in the body and not burst the fuselage. They have been assessed as posing less risk to people around the suicide bomber than conventional bullets but the effect on victims is devastating.
Jean Charles de Menezes Jean Charles de Menezes
Like the overall Kratos policy, the decision to make dum dum-style bullets available was taken in secret. However, it is understood that the Home Office became aware three years ago that police were considering their use.
Negotiations on possible national guidance are understood to have been inconclusive and the choice of ammunition appears to be at the discretion of police chiefs, not the Home Secretary.
There is no legal prohibition on police use of such ammunition. The Home Office confirmed last night that "chief officers may use whatever ammunition they consider appropriate to meet their operational needs".
It is understood from security sources that hollow point bullets are still available as an option to police firearms teams in Kratos-type cases.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating the shooting during which seven bullets were fired into Mr de Menezes's head and one into his shoulder.
A number of officers, including members of the firearms and surveillance teams and the Scotland Yard commander who ran the operation, Cressida Dick, have been issued with notices that they are subject to inquiries by the IPCC.
And using gas is also prohibited - but that doesn't stop local police from using CS gas. And is this a war? If not, then you can use anything you want on criminals...
gotsta watch them "Hoolow-point" bullets.
I think every police department in the world uses hollow point bullets. It's kind of a no-brainer.
Not sure about the original dum-dum bullets, but you're correct about the hollow points.
"Hoolow, piglet."
Ah! yes! pigbullets! banned in England.
I think dum-dums had an explosive charge in them.
Dum-Dum Bullet Updated - Saturday, 1 November, 2003
The 'dum-dum' was a British military bullet developed for use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in the late 1890s.
The dum-dum comprised a jacketed .303 bullet with the jacket nose open to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact.
The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use of dum-dum bullets during warfare.
During the First World War the Belgian government faced German charges of having used dum-dum bullets in battle. Kaiser Wilhelm II wrote a telegram to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson on 7 September 1914 protesting such use; the Belgians strongly denied the Kaiser's charges.
Oh, if they'd ONLY been plain round nosed lead bullets. /sarc.
Police are not required to conform to international law of war. As I understand it the police in the United States use hollow points as a matter of course.
Let's not forget that the stupid b*stard was running from the police.
"I think every police department in the world uses hollow point bullets. It's kind of a no-brainer."
Yep, that's one way you can tell the reporter has no brain and is a dum-dum.
LOL! That's what I was thinking. I have a feeling hollow points in this case really didn't matter.
"...seven bullets were fired into Mr de Menezes's head and one into his shoulder. "
7 out of 8 is pretty good but someone missed.
If he had survived 7 regular rounds to the head he could have become a reporter for the Telegraph. It would take 10 shots to the head to get him a job at the Guardian.
Reasoning was that the purpose in war of shooting someone was to disable, which was preferable to killing them so it would occupy 1 or more people to care for him. it got you more "bang for your buck" so to speak. In law enforcement (or terrorist deterrent the idea is to inflict as much trauma as possible so the perp does not have the time or capability to harm anyone else... ergo the man stopper bullets.
Softpoint bullets are prohibited to signatories of the Hague convention for use against the uniformed armed forces of other signatories of the Hague convention. This proscription does NOT apply to terrorists, criminal, or other miscreants in mufti.
They are also the standard civilian round, designed for hunting, self defense, and law enforcement use.
Keep in mind, the people who call these things "dum-dums" are the same bunch that call the other kind (full metal jacketed ammo) "armor piercing". They are as biased against guns as they are ignorant, and their use of bombastic language is a sure tip-off.
You're correct.
I've never understood the logic of the military not using hollow points. The idea is to kill bad guys, is it not? So why not use ammunition that is far more effective at doing so?
I'll likely start a flame war over this, but the inability to use hollow points is a prime cause of the failure of the 9mm round in Iraq. I carry 9mm hollow point every day and have no worries about its effectiveness in bringing a bad guy down. I'd never carry 9mm ball, though.
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