Ancient Tools At High Desert Site Go Back 135,000 Years (California)

San Bernardino Sun ^ | 11-24-2005 | Chuck Mueller

[Bender2]

bump for later read...

[Concho]

Looks like Cindy Sheehan

[TerP26]

Ginger people have no souls

[Coyoteman]

Good post, Blam.

I have never been to the site, but I have seen some of the tools and several presentations on the data. The tools I saw were unquestionably of deliberate manufacture, not accidental from soil movement.

Don't know what to make of the early age claims yet. I have been following this for years, and am still not sure.

I like to keep in mind Clarke's First Law:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

But, I also have to remember Isaac Asimov's Corollary to Clarke's First Law:

When, however, the lay public rallies round an idea that is denounced by distinguished but elderly scientists and supports that idea with great fervor and emotion — the distinguished but elderly scientists are then, after all, probably right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

[SunkenCiv]

The title of the topic pertains to 135,000 year old tool evidence. Archaic Homo Sapiens was around before that, and the oldest transitional form is something like 160,000 years. 25,000 years (give or take older transitional specimens not yet found) is a great plenty.

If you're arguing that Replacement is the only correct view, then I'll say that you are dead wrong.

[blam]

"Don't know what to make of the early age claims yet. I have been following this for years, and am still not sure."

Ditto.

This is one of the areas where George Carter gathered what came to be known as 'cartifacts.'
George also said that the Naval Observatory and part of San Diego University was built on one of these early sites too.

[SunkenCiv]

Maybe the gap is illusory. Prior to the Clovis discovery (and for some time thereafter, until isotope dating methods became available and accepted), the antiquity of humans in the Americas was 3000 years. The acceptance of Clovis didn't open minds, just dropped the floor beneath which nothing was permitted to fall.

A change of atmosphere will help.

[SunkenCiv]

Well put. I'd add that the habitation of humans has been on what is now the continental shelf (during major glaciations) for long periods of time during the past two million years.

[uscabjd]

No, that's not my argument. My only assumptions are set forth in my posts herein. Having said that, its hard to imagine even archaic Homo Sapiens in Southern California 200,000 years ago. My questions are the same as with other Homo forms.

An interesting discussion. Thanks for the post.

[SunkenCiv]

There is no evidence of Neanderthal DNA in modern populations.

There's nothing to substantiate that claim, and actually, logically, no way to substantiate it using any existing technique for studying the genes. A "study" of mtDNA (allegedly) from a Homo Heidelbergensis fossil (HH believed to be related to Neandertal) used fewer than 400 base pairs (out of a presumed original 16,000+ base pairs) was done, and showed what lengths researchers will go to to prop up the Replacement model.

The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve

Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

[SunkenCiv]

That means that the makers, presumably Indians, were around, and living not far from the glaciers. They should have then seen the glaciers, and also mammoths and saber-tooth tigers, and yet we have nothing in Am. Indian folklore about these things. It is just too long ago for a folk story to hold up.

I do agree, that's a very long time for folklore to endure regarding stuff that is around a long time (iow, stuff that doesn't change much). However, "presumably Indians" may be an unwarranted assumption, in which case any folklore wouldn't exist because their ancestors were not yet around. :')

[SunkenCiv]

You've just said 200,000 again, while the article (and the headline, and the topic title) is 135,000 years.

Early Modern Homo sapiens
Regional Continuity Model Arguments
Dennis O'Neil
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

Fossil evidence also is used to support the regional continuity model. Its advocates claim that there has been a continuity of some anatomical traits from archaic Homo sapiens to modern humans in Europe and Asia. In other words, the Asian and European physical characteristics have antiquity in these regions going back over 100,000 years. They point to the fact that many Europeans have relatively heavy brow ridges and a high angle of their noses reminiscent of Neandertals. Similarly, it is claimed that some Chinese facial characteristics can be seen in Asian archaic Homo sapiens dating to 200,000 years ago. Like Homo erectus, East Asians today commonly have shovel-shaped incisors while Africans and Europeans rarely do. This supports the contention of direct genetic links between Asian Homo erectus and modern Asians. Alan Thorne of the Australian National University believes that Australian aborigines share key skeletal and dental traits with people who inhabited Indonesia at least 100,000 years ago. The implication is that there was no replacement by modern humans from Africa 60,000-46,000 years ago. However, the evidence does not rule out gene flow from African populations to Europe and Asia at that time and before. David Frayer, of the University of Kansas, believes that a number of European fossils from the last 50,000 years have characteristics that are the result of archaic and modern Homo sapiens interbreeding.

[luvbach1]

Yes, maybe.

[SunkenCiv]

some links I just posted in the "Erectus in America" topic.

• Antiquity of Homo sapiens in China
• Picture Gallery of Fossil Hominoids and Hominids from China (from Google cache)
• similar page, same original source (from Google cache)
• Jinniushan skeleton (China)

[SunkenCiv]

something a little older, also from a post in that other topic.

---

The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age by Richard Rudgley

"The first discovery of a Palaeolithic site in Japan took place just after World War II. Until this time so strong was the belief amongst archaeologists that there was no Palaeolithic at all in Japan that excavators of Jomon sites would stop digging once they had reached the bottom... simply because the discovery of earlier artefacts was seen as totally impossible... In 1980 artefacts from a number of sites... were reliably dated... Those from Zazaragi were dated to 130,000 BP although sceptics maintained that they were perhaps no older than 50,000 years... IT must be said that the idea of Homo Erectus being the first American is, to almost all archaeologists, absolutely out of the question... According to Simpson and her team, a number of distinct types of artefacts, including hand-axes, hammerstones, and scrapers, were found at Calico, and their forms could not be the result of natural forces but can be nothing else [than] the tool kits of 200,000 year old occupants of California. They also claim that these artefacts are of a comparable technological level to those found at Lower Palaeolithic sites in China, and see the lack of acceptance of their finds as indicating a psychological barrier on the part of most archaeologists in accepting new and controversial data that does not fit neatly into preconceived notions of the antiquity of humans in the Americas." [pp 247-260]

---

[VeniVidiVici]

Good stuff. And not too far is Ft Irwin.

If I had known this stuff existed there I may have taken a few extra moments to poke around.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Just saw the author of this on CSPAN Booknotes today, very interesting:

1491 : New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (Hardcover)

[r9etb]

Couldn't possibly be true .... it's a well-known fact that ancient human habitation never expanded more than 3,200 feet per generation. There's just no way....

Seriously, though -- if they're right, it's a fascinating find. And not particularly surprising, either, except to those who underestimate the range of ancient humans.

[r9etb]

Still, how did they get here, where did they go and why no remains?

1. They walked here.

2. They walked away.

3a. Who says there are no remains?
3b. Animals ate them.
3c. 200,000 years is a damned long time. The remains could simply have dissolved.

Anyway, if these were nomadic hunter/getherers you wouldn't expect to see much. Heck, there's not much physical evidence of such tribes that existed a few hundred years ago.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"It sounds like another Piltdown Man hoax."

How do you know that the whole "out of Africa" theory isn't wrong, at best, or a fraud at worst?

Scientific fact is only fact until it is proven to be wrong.

Michael Frazier