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Atheists File Suit Against UHP Memorial Crosses
ABC 4 in Utah ^ | 12/1/2005 | ABC 4

Posted on 12/01/2005 7:13:41 AM PST by Andyman

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To: WildTurkey

Well, you've certainly convinced me that you know nothing about Christianity but you certainly don't let that stop you from hating it.


151 posted on 12/01/2005 7:51:16 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: mc6809e
The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment.

So putting crosses or jewish stars on the graves in Arlignton National Cemetary is not allowed either?

It's the same.

152 posted on 12/01/2005 7:51:33 PM PST by Centurion2000 ((Aubrey, Tx) --- America, we get the best government corporations can buy.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> There is nothing in the theory of universal gravitation to oppose Nazism either. I don't believe in a god. Why should that bear on any political movement? <<

Incidentally, I have a quite very Catholic Yugoslavian great uncle (his ethnic group is "Gotscheer.") He did enthusiastically support Hitler, volunteering for the army. Apon capture by the allied forces, he was so disgusted by what he heard of Hitler, that, when the allies were faced with a counter-offensive, he grabbed a rifle and fought side-by-side with his American captors, was recognized as a hero, and was granted a visa, and eventually citizenship, in America.

I'm sure he would quite vigorously refute all of the notions: that Yugoslavs expected Hitler to establish Orthodox Christianity in Yugoslavia (in fact, he fought because he expected that Hitler would establish something more German over the Yugoslavs which oppressed him); that it was Christian to support Hitler (he would also say that his support of Hitler was quite very much in spite of, and not because of, his Christianity.) And that the Serbs were among the Yugoslavs who tended to support Hitler.

Following the Gotscheer's general support of Hitler, the Serbs were so angry at the Gotscheer's fascism, that they they committed a very successful genocide against the Gottscheer. The people today exist only in the UK and the US.


153 posted on 12/01/2005 7:53:34 PM PST by dangus
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To: WildTurkey

>> What is there in Christianity to oppose Nazism? <<

(*filed under, "Questions not worth responding to," and "Evidence that there ARE stupid questions, not just stupid answers."*)


154 posted on 12/01/2005 7:55:20 PM PST by dangus
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> It established the German Christian Church, for heaven's sake! <<

Yes, it invented a false church to mimic, but oppose Christianity. The Maoists did the same thing.


155 posted on 12/01/2005 7:56:32 PM PST by dangus
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To: FormerLib

"atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights."

Not to mention the bloody single-minded excess of the French Revolution.


156 posted on 12/02/2005 3:25:25 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: WildTurkey
Properly understood, atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights. It is opposed to all forms of totalitarian ideology.

That is a load of total and complete hogwash. Whenever atheism has become a political force it has been totalitarian.

157 posted on 12/02/2005 4:47:17 AM PST by wideawake
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To: July 4th
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

Well, you just lost me, there, Mr. Andrews.

158 posted on 12/02/2005 5:20:13 AM PST by gridlock (eliminate perverse incentives)
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To: dangus
Since Christianity is defined by rejecting certain actions inherent to the Nazi system, one doesn't need to get bogged down in debates over Hitler's contraditory and dishonest statements. Hence, we can eliminate the possibility that Hitler was a Christian.

Martin Luther preached the enslavement of the Jews and the mass execution of Rabbis. Following the logic above, one concludes Martin Luther was not a Christian. That makes the fact that major Christian denominations are to this day named after Martin Luther a bit problematic, no?

159 posted on 12/02/2005 5:28:26 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: WildTurkey
Properly understood, atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights.

It's that "properly understood" thing that is problematic.

Atheism throws the baby out with the bathwater. Lots of nafarious things move into the resulting void.

Like drunk driving and car crashes, atheism and nihilistic totalitarian idiocies just seem to go together. Which is not to say some drunks don't manage to drive home safely and some atheists are harmless. But you have to admit there is a correlation, no?

160 posted on 12/02/2005 5:31:10 AM PST by gridlock (eliminate perverse incentives)
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To: Andyman
Secular Jihad Alert. Film at 11.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie.Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

161 posted on 12/02/2005 5:32:41 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Right Wing Professor; dangus
That makes the fact that major Christian denominations are to this day named after Martin Luther a bit problematic, no?

Only if they continue to profess Luther's anti-Jewish sentiments, which are clearly outside of Christian teaching.

Well, do they?

Gee, guess that wasn't so problematic as some would suggest, eh?

162 posted on 12/02/2005 6:15:58 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib

You dodged the question. Was Martin Luther a Christian, or not?


163 posted on 12/02/2005 7:00:32 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
You dodged the question. Was Martin Luther a Christian, or not?

You didn't ask that question so how could I have dodged it?

Anyway, it is quite clear that Martin Luther made several statements concerning the Jews that were decidedly un-Christian and Christians, as a whole, are no more bound to those statements than all Americans are bound to statements from Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan.

164 posted on 12/02/2005 7:06:53 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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Comment #165 Removed by Moderator

To: FormerLib
Anyway, it is quite clear that Martin Luther made several statements concerning the Jews that were decidedly un-Christian and Christians, as a whole, are no more bound to those statements than all Americans are bound to statements from Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan.

Was Martin Luther a Christian, or not?

166 posted on 12/02/2005 7:16:32 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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Comment #167 Removed by Moderator

To: Right Wing Professor

What makes you think I'm in a position to judge?

He certainly said he was, right?

He also said things there were un-Christian, right?


168 posted on 12/02/2005 7:27:03 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi; Andyman
The atheists suggest the association could honor the troopers with a non-denominational symbol.

Here's a "non-denominational symbol" for the atheists that
everyone should be able to understand.

169 posted on 12/02/2005 7:27:41 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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Comment #170 Removed by Moderator

To: FormerLib
What makes you think I'm in a position to judge?

So were the Nazis Christians? Can you judge that?

And in any case, if you can't judge, why exactly did you get involved in this discussion?

171 posted on 12/02/2005 7:40:12 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Unlike you, the President has way too much class to make such a gesture.

Photoshopping images of the President is usually the kind of thing DUers do.

172 posted on 12/02/2005 7:41:29 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Andyman
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

With rhetoric like that I dont think this groups has a snowball's chance in haiti of succeeding.

173 posted on 12/02/2005 7:43:47 AM PST by smith288 (Peace at all cost makes for tyranny free of charge...)
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To: Right Wing Professor
And in any case, if you can't judge, why exactly did you get involved in this discussion?

Because your statement "That makes the fact that major Christian denominations are to this day named after Martin Luther a bit problematic, no?" was too mind-bendingly stupid to allow it to pass unmocked!

174 posted on 12/02/2005 7:51:11 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Andyman
Three Utah atheists, backed by a national organization based in Texas, are filing suit against the state for allowing crosses to be erected in honor of highway patrol troopers, who have died in the line of duty.

Since atheists don't fear going before G-d, I say we start killing them wholesale.

175 posted on 12/02/2005 7:52:04 AM PST by Lazamataz (Proudly Posting Without Reading The Article Since 1999)
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To: FormerLib
Because your statement "That makes the fact that major Christian denominations are to this day named after Martin Luther a bit problematic, no?" was too mind-bendingly stupid to allow it to pass unmocked!

So you think you mocked it? All I saw was you dodging the point. You are now claiming Christian denominations are named after a person of whose Christianity you are uncertain. Maybe we need the first Christian Church of Buddha, too?

176 posted on 12/02/2005 7:54:48 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor

Left-brained dorks with no sense of humor are such a riot!


177 posted on 12/02/2005 7:58:02 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Right Wing Professor

Luther is a tough issue. Given that his society was one in which 100% of the people called themselves Christians, there was no exposure to an alternate belief system, and "Christian" was fairly synonymous with righteous, I'd say definitions have shifted significantly, and that if anyone were to appear today saying what Luther actually said about issues other than Jews, 100% of American, church-going "Lutherans" would denounce him as the very spawn of Satan himself.

Generally, it is sensible to allow someone to define themselves, particularly if that person is sincere, as Luther may well have been. But Luther insisted that no-one before him who had ever been recognized as a Christian leader was, in fact, really Christian, and created radical new beliefs (again, rejected by nearly all modern Protestants -- I'm not talking sola fidelis) and called them "true Christianity." He's plainly not lumping himself in with those who had previously called themselves Christians, so I think it is fair to not lump him in also.

Modern LutherANs should be called Christians, I would say, but not only do LutherANs reject Luther's planned enslavement of the Jews, they also reject his notion that human beings should sin to their heart's content.

Further, as warped as it sounds, Luther's evil plans were not nearly as removed from Christianity as Hitler's. Luther believed Jewish leaders were wilfully leading their people to Hell. As barbaric and foolish as his premises and remedies were, they were based on a presumption that Jews could be saved, if the obstacles to their salvation were removed, and that ultimately, the Jews would be saved by Christ. That value is not inherently anti-Christian.

On the other hand, Hitler's hatred of Jews was founded on racism; they were never God's people, and they never could be. All things Jewish, including Jesus of Nazareth, were inherently evil, and should be destroyed. (He thought that Jesus was a perversion of a non-Jewish, pre-existing notion of Christ.) That is inherently anti-Christian.


178 posted on 12/02/2005 8:01:23 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Generally, it is sensible to allow someone to define themselves, particularly if that person is sincere, as Luther may well have been. But Luther insisted that no-one before him who had ever been recognized as a Christian leader was, in fact, really Christian, and created radical new beliefs (again, rejected by nearly all modern Protestants -- I'm not talking sola fidelis) and called them "true Christianity." He's plainly not lumping himself in with those who had previously called themselves Christians, so I think it is fair to not lump him in also.

Well, if your definition of Christians is sufficiently narrow to exclude Martin Luther, then I'll concede you are also entitled to exclude the Nazis. On the other hand, you really ought to make it clear that you're using a definition at odds with common usage. I quickly checked several biographical sources; all had Luther listed as a Christian.

Further, as warped as it sounds, Luther's evil plans were not nearly as removed from Christianity as Hitler's. Luther believed Jewish leaders were wilfully leading their people to Hell. As barbaric and foolish as his premises and remedies were, they were based on a presumption that Jews could be saved, if the obstacles to their salvation were removed, and that ultimately, the Jews would be saved by Christ. That value is not inherently anti-Christian.

You'll have to appreciate, that as an atheist, I see no virtue at all in 'saving' Jews. Luther wanted to do bad things to Jews in pursuit of a deluded goal. Even Hitler, by Hitler's standards, had good intentions. That's why I don't give points for good intentions.

But thanks for the civil discussion; a rarity on this sort of thread.

179 posted on 12/02/2005 8:17:26 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
So you think you mocked it?

Actually, I did mock it. Sorry if the mockery went over your head.

All I saw was you dodging the point.

There was no point in the original statement, other than an attempt to defame all Christians by being associated with this one man.

You are now claiming Christian denominations are named after a person of whose Christianity you are uncertain.

Actually, that's your claim.

My claim is that the sort of statements referenced where decidely un-Christian.

180 posted on 12/02/2005 8:18:00 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Left-brained dorks with no sense of humor are such a riot!

You probably love armpit farts too.

181 posted on 12/02/2005 8:18:35 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: mc6809e
Three Utah atheists, backed by a national organization based in Texas, are filing suit against the state for allowing crosses to be erected in honor of highway patrol troopers, who have died in the line of duty.

How can you claim that allowing crosses is "bullying"? Are you that insecure in your atheism?

182 posted on 12/02/2005 8:38:11 AM PST by teawithmisswilliams (Question Diversity)
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To: mewzilla
"...first the atheists will come for the Christians. Then the Jews. The Muslims. Et al. Any person of faith. Anyone who thinks his/her faith is safe will be sadly mistaken.

The atheists are coming after Christians and Jews, but they're way too cowardly to stand up to the muslims. The only people that do that are...Christians and Jews.

183 posted on 12/02/2005 8:43:24 AM PST by teawithmisswilliams (Question Diversity)
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To: SCALEMAN
I have concluded that the ones who protest don't want to be reminded that if they are wrong, then they made a huge mistake in judgement.

Ironically, if they get reminded now, they may just escape the eternal reminder they're heading for later.

184 posted on 12/02/2005 9:48:32 AM PST by Dahoser (Time to condense the nonsense: Terry Tate for Congressional Linebacker.)
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To: July 4th

ya know I've had about all I can digest of these POS'...

we lost 10 Marines today and 11 wounded fighting for this country


We're gonna keep the crosses & Stars of David, the Nativity scenes, saying "Merry Christmas" and if I feel like it; I'm gonna tell the 'Rats, Lefties, Liberals, Socialists, Commies ,agnostics and atheists and any other a-hole to go STRAIGHT TO HELL!


and if any swinging Richard doesn't like our history, custom, culture, religions and language maybe they should just pack up and get the hell out of here!


Point, Game, Set, Match!

Semper Fi,
Kelly


185 posted on 12/02/2005 12:32:58 PM PST by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1st Battalion,5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi)
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To: Morris_Hattrick

Your entire argument is idiotic. A cross is a valid marker for any dead person. Do you actually stop and think, "a cross on the side of the road. This must be a religious statement made by a zealot."? I hope not. I think, "someone died here, and someone or some group cared enough to mark his/her passing". I haven't seen any evidence that any crosses were placed against anyone's wishes. And the whole nazi slant just proves how absolutely baseless these morons' claims are.
I agree with the guy who said, "if it offends you so much, look away." After all, these officers died protecting your sorry, worthless ass.

And just so we don't offend the atheists, we promise to bury them face down with no marker.


186 posted on 12/02/2005 2:59:58 PM PST by MooseMan (That's all I have to say about that.)
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To: Madeleine Ward; mc6809e
In what ways do Christians use the state to bully non-Christians. Start giving some examples.

Crickets...

187 posted on 12/02/2005 4:05:33 PM PST by smith288 (Peace at all cost makes for tyranny free of charge...)
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To: Andyman; Right Wing Professor
As an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".

SovietProfessor does not let facts get in the way of a good rant against religion (well, Christians anyway). Besides, an atheist is yet again trying to impose his views on others, so a distraction was needed by one of his peers.

188 posted on 12/02/2005 4:26:48 PM PST by Hacksaw (Monomania is treatable.)
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To: Andyman
Atheists File Suit Against UHP Memorial Crosses

Atheists have no shame.

189 posted on 12/02/2005 4:37:09 PM PST by judgeandjury
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To: fightnback

Acknowledging it, and not "preventing the free exercise thereof" as spelled out in the Constitution.

This is nothing more than the continuing, relentless campaign by America's God-haters to force everyone to live lives of non-belief like they choose to do.



190 posted on 12/02/2005 4:38:39 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: mc6809e
The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment.

Only if it's done by way of a law being passed. "Congress shall make no law....."

191 posted on 12/02/2005 4:44:37 PM PST by judgeandjury
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To: little jeremiah
I felt intimidated earlier when I saw a sign in Spanish. I don't speak Spanish. Just what are these language bullies trying to do here? Why do they insist on excluding me?

Get me an ACLU lawyer, pronto.
192 posted on 12/02/2005 6:19:05 PM PST by Das Outsider
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To: Hacksaw
SovietProfessor does not let facts get in the way of a good rant against religion (well, Christians anyway). Besides, an atheist is yet again trying to impose his views on others, so a distraction was needed by one of his peers

Thanks for proving my point that being a dollop of pond scum is entirely consistent with being a self-proclaimed 'Christian'.

193 posted on 12/02/2005 9:12:34 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Andyman

If the atheists don't mind the troopers being honored in some way, then they should leave it up to the families to choose the symbol. The honor is about the troopers, not about non-related atheists.

If it comes down to the atheists objecting to tax dollars being used, then they can be reimbursed when the rest of us are reimbursed for government funding of NPR, Planned Parenthood and the lawsuit expenses incurred by idiotic lawsuits started by atheists.


194 posted on 12/02/2005 9:59:22 PM PST by skr
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To: Andyman
I say we toss the atheist in jail for no reason and kick him in the ass to really fulfill his Nazi fantasy.... I'll play the lead cop.
195 posted on 12/02/2005 10:01:48 PM PST by Porterville (Beware the Egyptian Politics)
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To: WildTurkey

Just your humble opinion huh?


196 posted on 12/03/2005 12:24:34 PM PST by abigailsmybaby ("This is the sort of English up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill)
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To: Das Outsider
I felt intimidated earlier when I saw a sign in Spanish. I don't speak Spanish. Just what are these language bullies trying to do here? Why do they insist on excluding me?

Get me an ACLU lawyer, pronto.

ROTFL!

197 posted on 12/03/2005 6:29:25 PM PST by Left Blue NJ for Red SC
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Comment #198 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus

Actually, I believe that the Gottscheer were moved out of the Gottschee/Kocevje area by Hitler. Tito (who was a Croat with some Slovene blood, btw)merely prevented them from returning.

http://www.carniola.org/theglory/2004/07/the_depopulatio.htm


199 posted on 12/05/2005 4:31:44 PM PST by Jacob Kell (BBC-Buttheaded Bolshevik Communists. CNN-Communist Numbnutted Nincompoops)
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To: Jacob Kell

He prevented them from returning by killing every last one of them.


200 posted on 12/05/2005 9:25:22 PM PST by dangus
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