[Capriole]

It's not really difficult to believe that they sailed east and discovered the west coast of the Americas. But it's a lot harder to accept that they not only circumnavigated the globe but went up and down the coast of every contenent, sailed up the major rivers of every continent, pushed their way in wooden boats through the ice-clogged Northwest Passage that defied European ships for centuries, circumnavigated Antarctica and realized there was land beneath the ice, and charted the furthest, most snowbound portions of Russia.

[garyhope]

Exactly. My thought also. That amount of sailing and exploring would have been very, very difficult in those days. I think it's fake.

[sam_paine]

Well, if he did "copy" it from an earlier map....it doesn't exclude that he also incorporated other maps into it. Look at Google Earth today. It is merely a "copy" and overlay of multiple map sources.

[jas3]

That is EXACTLY correct. The accuracy of the polar regions destroys the credibility of this map. There is NO WAY that the Chinese could have pushed into either the Northwest Passage or Antarctica. ZIPPO possibility of that.

It is quite possible, and I would say nearly certain, that the Chinese had discovered the North American West Coast by 1500.

Herodotus suggests that the Phoenicians had circumnavigated Africa (clockwise starting in the Red Sea) over a period of 3 years around 600 BC. It would not even surprise me to find conclusive evidence one day that the Carthaginians were in South American around 450 BC. Certainly Hanno was already in modern day Sierra Leone by then with 60 ships and thousands of settlers.

By 600 BC the Phoenicians had invented the keel. They used covered decks and had excellent sails and rigging. Their vessels were about 90 feet in length and could carry 50 to 100 tons. They were comparable to 15th century Portugese caravels and could travel 100 miles in 24 hours. Were the Phoenicians or Carthaginians in South America 2,500 years ago? Maybe. Maybe not. PROBABLY not. But Maybe. There are some insteresting hints that they were, including potential numismatic evidence. But still....probably not.

I am very much reminded by this Chinese map of the Vinland Map forgery. There is a wonderful book on the topic by Kirsten A. Seaver called "Maps, Mythes, and Men" in which she likely determines the identity of the forger and his sources of parchment.

I strongly suspect that the mass spectrometry tests will confirm the map is a fraud.

jas3

[SunkenCiv]

jas3: That is EXACTLY correct. The accuracy of the polar regions destroys the credibility of this map. There is NO WAY that the Chinese could have pushed into either the Northwest Passage or Antarctica. ZIPPO possibility of that.

Actually, that very thing could have taken place, during the medieval warming, IOW, before the alleged 15th century map given as the source for the 18th century map.

jas3: Herodotus suggests that the Phoenicians had circumnavigated Africa (clockwise starting in the Red Sea) over a period of 3 years around 600 BC. It would not even surprise me to find conclusive evidence one day that the Carthaginians were in South American around 450 BC. Certainly Hanno was already in modern day Sierra Leone by then with 60 ships and thousands of settlers.

Herodotus doesn't suggest it, he says so outright. He notes a detail, which he states that he himself doesn't believe, that the Phoenicians had the Sun on their right, rather than their left, a detail it is unlikely to have been made up. Herodotus also writes about the unity of the seas, from the Atlantic / Mediterranean, to the Erythraean Sea, which included the Persian Gulf, the Gulfs of Aqaba and Suez, and the Indian Ocean.

Prior to 600 BC, the Phoenicians had colonized the western coast of Africa. The circumnavigation of Africa probably took place subsequent to the expedition in The Periplus of Hanno and was in the counterclockwise direction.