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In Search of Chivalry Did it sink with the Titanic?
National Review Online ^ | April 13, 2006 | Carrie Lukas

Posted on 04/13/2006 11:55:44 AM PDT by ReleaseTheHounds

Imagine a luxury liner sinking into artic waters with too few lifeboats for its passengers. Who would get those seats?

When the Titanic sank on April 15, 1912, the answer was obvious: women and children had first priority. Why was this? Certainly, the male passengers could have over-powered most of the women and saved their own lives. What kept them from doing so?

Chivalry. The idea that part of being a man (and certainly part of being a gentleman) is to sacrifice willingly to protect those who are more vulnerable. Of course, all those aboard the Titanic were equally vulnerable to the near freezing water. The men who gave their seats in the lifeboats gave their lives. Out of all of the Titanic's passengers, 74 percent of women lived while 80 percent of the men died.

Christina Hoff Sommers began her review of Harvey Mansfield's new book Manliness by reminding readers of the memorial erected by women in 1931 to honor those men on the Titanic. The memorial's inscription reads: "To the brave men who perished in the wreck of the Titanic. . . . They gave their lives that women and children might be saved." As Sommers suggests, this overlooked memorial is a fitting symbol of the state of chivalry or even of manliness today:

"...almost no one remembers those men. Women no longer bring flowers to the statue on April 15 to honor their chivalry. The idea of male gallantry makes many women nervous, suggesting (as it does) that women require special protection. It implies the sexes are objectively different. It tells us that some things are best left to men. Gallantry is a virtue that dare not speak its name."

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: chivalry; feminism; manners; men; titanic
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To: tx_eggman
A totally unwatchable movie, never made more then a few minutes into it[my girls had a tape of it and it seemed to be always on] especially with that half man/boy Leonardo in it.If I want to see a good film version of it I will watch the one with Barb Stanwyck.
51 posted on 04/13/2006 1:31:39 PM PDT by ABN 505
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To: tfecw

I think that's more of a regional thing than an indication that people are ruder in NY, since even very well-mannered people up here don't use "ma'am." We still sometimes use "sir," but only when speaking to people like police officers.


52 posted on 04/13/2006 1:37:05 PM PDT by Young Scholar
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To: tfecw

I'm a woman who has lived in New York City for thirty years and people get suspicious because I say please and thank you. They figure I'm either mentally challenged or a con artist. City people can be provincial, too. Don't let them change you.


53 posted on 04/13/2006 1:42:55 PM PDT by joylyn
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To: tfecw
The correct address to a young lady is "miss".

Also, one of the true marks of a gentleman, especially in this day and age, is a handkerchief. Have one handy at all times because when you address a lady with a term of respect, she will undoubtedly burst into tears!
54 posted on 04/13/2006 1:46:22 PM PDT by ishabibble (UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL)
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To: ExpatGator
My reply to the request "don't call me ma'am" is always "yes ma'am." Kill 'em with kindness.

LOL! That's really the only proper response. 

55 posted on 04/13/2006 1:51:41 PM PDT by zeugma (Anybody who says XP is more secure than OS X or Linux has been licking toads.)
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To: ReleaseTheHounds; Just another Joe; dmz
I'm raising my two daughters (ages 12 and 11) as well as my 6 year old son to say, "Yes ma'am, no ma'am, yes sir, no sir, please, and thank you." It drives me crazy when some snotty brat says, "Huh?" of "What?" or "Yeah" to me or another authority figure.

Not only that but I'm constantly telling my son (and he is quickly getting there) to always look another man in the eye and shake his hand with a firm squeeze, smile and introduce himself.

My daughters are taught to wait on a door to be opened for them.

It's working.
At the Easter party today a little girl in my son's class lost her balloon while outside. My son gave her his balloon and went without. (That's a big deal at 6 years old). He will get ice cream tonight after we go to the batting cages!



It all boils down to upbringing. Here in the South, we know how to do it.
56 posted on 04/13/2006 1:52:02 PM PDT by ConservativeBamaFan (Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than Dick Cheney's quail gun.)
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To: linda_22003
Even many of the most prominent men aboard, including John Jacob Astor, IV, died.
57 posted on 04/13/2006 1:56:11 PM PDT by Young Scholar
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To: Darth Malice
The True Origins of Chivalry:

http://www.sociallyinept.com/TheTrueOriginsofChivalry.htm

58 posted on 04/13/2006 1:58:54 PM PDT by Junior_G
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To: Restorer
I haven't gotten a negative response since the early eighties.

Since I will hold a door for men or women, I never in that big a hurry, I've found that most just walk on by without even a nod. The cell phone talkers act like I'm an automatic door.

The people who do respond, male or female generally respond with the sweetest smile and a nice thank you.
59 posted on 04/13/2006 1:59:29 PM PDT by PeteB570 (Guns, what real men want for Christmas)
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To: Young Scholar

And Isidor Straus, chairman of Macy's, whose wife Ida wouldn't leave him to get on a lifeboat, and went down with him and the ship.


60 posted on 04/13/2006 2:02:11 PM PDT by linda_22003
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To: ReleaseTheHounds

Thanks for posting this article. Chivalry is not totally dead...for the most part, conservative men tend to be the most gallant and courteous towards women. I was just at a Republican event in Sacramento a couple of weeks ago. I did a double take when two...very young...gentlemen opened the door for me and still a few others in the room stood up when I entered. I looked around wondering why they were standing...then I remembered. Apparently, the local Young Republican Club had a couple of meetings about good manners and they took it to heart. Pretty cool, I say.


61 posted on 04/13/2006 2:19:29 PM PDT by demnomo
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To: Darksheare; HiJinx; SandRat; Old Sarge; xzins; BIGLOOK; ALOHA RONNIE; An Old Marine; ...

Gallant, chivalrous men can still be found at FR!


62 posted on 04/13/2006 2:28:15 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Darth Malice
In this day and age women want to be men fine....don't give up your seat because we would not wish to offend

Where in my post did I even hint that I would be offended by a man offering me his seat? Or that I wished to be a man? I appreciate your frustration, but perhaps you should direct it elsewhere.

63 posted on 04/13/2006 2:33:01 PM PDT by Mordacious
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To: Constitution Day

>>>>So true. You'd think people would bother to use spell check.

Spell check????? Never heard of it.



::Queen of all typos, and proud::

:)


64 posted on 04/13/2006 3:02:27 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: ABN 505
A totally unwatchable movie, never made more then a few minutes into it[my girls had a tape of it and it seemed to be always on] especially with that half man/boy Leonardo in it.If I want to see a good film version of it I will watch the one with Barb Stanwyck.

My point exactally .. that's why I the only thing I watched was Dicrappio dying, it actually made me laugh.

65 posted on 04/14/2006 8:45:38 AM PDT by tx_eggman (Islamofascism ... bringing you the best of the 7th century for the past 1300 years.)
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To: Restorer
I wonder if the stories of men being chewed out for holding a door or offering a seat to a woman are true.

They are. It's happened multiple times to me.

(OTOH, I am in California)...

66 posted on 04/14/2006 8:48:59 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: ExpatGator
My reply to the request "don't call me ma'am" is always "yes ma'am." Kill 'em with kindness.

A puzzled look followed by "yes... uh... sir?" is sometimes worth the risk.

But again, I'm in California, and sometimes it is a guy...

67 posted on 04/14/2006 8:56:22 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: American Quilter

FWIW, I Like gray hair on a woman.


68 posted on 04/14/2006 8:57:48 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: Savage Beast
My father was the personification of manliness, chivalry, and the manly virtues. Come to think of it--so is my son.

You done good.

69 posted on 04/14/2006 8:59:20 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: Constitution Day; martin_fierro

The titantic was a flesh wound to chivalry... soon to be eclipsed by the collapse of the value of human life in the trenches, which made possible the dark valley of the 20's and 30's.


70 posted on 04/14/2006 9:01:47 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: null and void

You like gray hair on a woman? How 'bout if it's on her chest? :P


71 posted on 04/14/2006 9:02:09 AM PDT by derllak
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To: zeugma
LOL! That's really the only proper response.

Proper, yes, but there are sometimes better responses...

72 posted on 04/14/2006 9:02:29 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: ReleaseTheHounds
Imagine a luxury liner sinking into artic waters with too few lifeboats for its passengers. Who would get those seats?

White Christian males wouldn't. they'd be run over by everyone else and called every -ist in the book if they did get off.

73 posted on 04/14/2006 9:02:54 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Every man must be tempted, sometimes,to hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.)
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To: derllak

If it's still attached to my head, sure!


74 posted on 04/14/2006 9:05:09 AM PDT by null and void (<----nasty, brutish, and short...)
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To: ReleaseTheHounds

A culture of Chivalry actually
Muslim's male would have throw the women overboard to get to the lifeboats


75 posted on 04/14/2006 9:06:07 AM PDT by 1903A3
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To: null and void

Rofl! I wasn't expecting such a clever answer! BTW, I'll give my gramma a call and tell her your interested. She just turned 100 in Feb! :)
Too ba, but I think the article is right and it's such a shame. Seems no one puts any stock in honor and duty anymore.
It's become the "me" generation. And that goes for women as well as men!


76 posted on 04/14/2006 9:14:49 AM PDT by derllak
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To: null and void
FWIW, I Like gray hair on a woman.

Bless you!

77 posted on 04/14/2006 11:27:36 AM PDT by American Quilter
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To: ReleaseTheHounds
Is it true that commissioned military officers are no longer officially recognized as "officers and gentlemen"? Is "conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman" still a generally cited regulation in military courts?

The last time I heard chivalry mentioned in public affairs, it was Colin Powell's statement in Gulf War I that to continue the destruction of the Iraqi troops would be unchivalrous.

Of course, this passes over the problem that chivalry has no exact counterpart in Islam outside of Romantic poetry.

78 posted on 04/14/2006 12:43:21 PM PDT by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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To: null and void

I lived three years in CA and had no such experiences. But then I was in comparatively conservative Sacramento, not LA or the Bay Area.


79 posted on 04/14/2006 12:46:41 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: ExpatGator
My reply to the request "don't call me ma'am" is always "yes ma'am." Kill 'em with kindness. What's the old military phrase? "Saluting their office"?
80 posted on 04/14/2006 12:48:56 PM PDT by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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To: American Quilter

I have gone onto buses with a few children and holding a baby. One of the nicest things I ever saw was an older man stand for my children and nudge a younger man to give up his seat, as well. If the bus is full and a lady gets on the bus and goes near our seat, I will often have my oldest son offer his seat. A lot of times, it is not accepted, though.


81 posted on 04/14/2006 12:53:14 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: tfecw
The first homeschooling family I ever met had children who said "ma'am" and "sir". I thought it quaint and have since worked on teaching my children the same. I even have the habit of saying it. I mentioned this on an email list on I am on. A lot of the women said they did not like it when people said ma'am. One even said children sound snotty when they say it. I think it might if forced, but not when it's a habit.

It's incredibly cute to hear my three year old ask, "Are you are a sir or a ma'am?" since he is still trying ot figure it out.

82 posted on 04/14/2006 12:57:45 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: tfecw
being from TX I say "mam" all the time.

everytime I have been up north my use of mam has had mixed reviews.
1: Don't call me mam...I am not old enough
2: Mam?!?!...this is 2006 don't use those old repressive anti-women words to me!
3: Mam?...oh how sweet...nice to see a gentleman still exist.
4: Mam??...you are not from here are you??

I refuse to change from being a southern gentleman so "mam" will stay in my dictionary...right next to "y'all"
83 posted on 04/14/2006 1:02:07 PM PDT by Casaubon (Internet Research Ninja Masta)
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To: null and void

Yep, I done good--i.e., I was lucky.


84 posted on 04/14/2006 1:05:39 PM PDT by Savage Beast (9/11 was never repeated--thanks to President Bush and his surveillance program.)
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To: tx_eggman

The scene was almost as satisfying as when Susie Sarandon falls off the wing of that airplane in "The Great Waldo Pepper". That one will wear out your rewind.


85 posted on 04/14/2006 1:19:54 PM PDT by Dionysius (ACLU is the enemy)
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To: ReleaseTheHounds

Chivalry didn't die, it was assassinated by ugly lesbians.


86 posted on 04/14/2006 1:22:00 PM PDT by Dionysius (ACLU is the enemy)
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To: Restorer

Yeah, well coastal California is a whole different country. Real civilization doesn't start until you are at least 100 km from the ocean. Dammit.


87 posted on 04/14/2006 4:35:36 PM PDT by null and void (<---- Proud son of a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vet Marine...)
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To: HungarianGypsy
It's incredibly cute to hear my three year old ask, "Are you are a sir or a ma'am?" since he is still trying to figure it out.

LOL! When my daughter was a little bit older than that we had to go to a barbecue at my bosses' house. She wanted to know which one was the girl, Jim or Henry? (They're gay).

For some reason not long after that, I got terminated...

88 posted on 04/14/2006 4:41:10 PM PDT by null and void (<---- Proud son of a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vet Marine...)
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To: ReleaseTheHounds

I've got to go read this HArvey Mansfield book. If Naomi Wolf doesn't like it it must be good. LOL!


89 posted on 04/16/2006 4:28:35 AM PDT by buckeyesrule (It is baseball season!!!!!!)
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To: tfecw
***I used to say "yes ma'am", but two weeks in NY, and about a 100 "don't call me ma'am"s later i stopped.***

It's kinda funny to watch American Idol sometimes when you have alot of these young singers who grew up in the south who have been taught to refer to elders as "yes maam", "no maam", and the older New Yorkers or Hollywood types are like UGHH!!!! stop calling me maam. LOL!

90 posted on 04/16/2006 4:32:59 AM PDT by buckeyesrule (It is baseball season!!!!!!)
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