"You are so wrong on so many fronts."
Undoubtedly.
But I'm right on this particular front.
"You like to find an issue and push your weight around."
What weight?
Who am I?
"You like to threaten or you will leave,"
Not really.
I have a certain set of beliefs. Most of the time, they don't come into play. When they do, I state them. It's not a "threat", but informational, an advance warning, so to speak. If someone insists on pushing me on something on which I am resolved, I push back. If someone wants a full blown test of wills with me, I fight.
When I care about something, I fight.
"you want to throw away all our work so that you get to put your finger in the eye of the government."
You are throwing away all of your work so that you don't have to back down and give the BorderBots something they desperately want. Why is your not backing down on something unimportant so important that you are willing to blow up everything you've done? Just give them their fence and you don't have anything to worry about it.
Is that so hard?
WHY is it so hard?
Do you want an open border?
"Well - it is apparent that you will not help us -"
I have done you an immeasurable service today. I have patiently and repeatedly, and very carefully and articulately, and without abuse or excesses of purple passion, explained PRECISELY what the threat is to everything you want, PRECISELY where it's coming from, and PRECISELY what you need to do to fix the problem, so that the threat goes away.
But you're angry because I am telling you that you have encountered people who you NEED to achieve your goals, but who are not going to back down and take one for the team.
Are they selfish? Maybe.
They don't think so.
They think they are patriots trying to hold the line against a foreign invasion from without, and merchants from within who will sell their country, culture and future for a mess of cheap pottage.
So, you're not going to convince them.
And you're not going to intimidate them.
And they aren't going to back down.
And they are not going to save all your good work unless you give in and give them what THEY want.
It's as simple and as hard as that.
Why do you oppose saying the words: "We will build a border wall, an effective fence, like Israel has built, from sea to sea." There. That's it. That's all you have to do to prevent everything else from collapsing.
Why are you so stubborn about this?
And why do you think the BorderBots are going to back down on something PRECIOUS to them if YOU won't back down on a THROWAWAY issue to you.
Do you CARE if there's a fence on the Mexican Border?
No?
Then why don't you concede the point, and say that, yeah, to put the Party back together again and save everything, the President has to yield?
All I have done is frame the issue clearly and in precise language. That's doing you a service and the BorderBots a service too. If you listen to me, if the Republicans listen to me, you will save yourselves. If you are just absolutely adamant that I AM THE ENEMY for giving you a bad weather report, then you are going to repeat the error of Bush 41, do the equivalent of hiking taxes, and watch your work fall apart as you lose your allies.
Just stop it.
Agree to the wall.
"so, I consider you one of the enemy."
That's too bad.
You sound like Bilbo guarding his magic ring.
I will answer: "Bilbo Baggins! I am not trying to rob you! I am trying to HELP you." - Gandalf.
"Anybody that is willing to throw away all of my efforts to get a good man in the government for their current issue of the day"
The issues old. I am not "willing" to throw anything away. I want to keep the majority. That is why I want people like you to cut the test-of-wills power-struggle language and simply agree that we have to give the BorderBots their goddamned fence. That way we can keep Congress and not have bad things happen.
Obviously taxes and abortion are not "issues du jour". They are abiding, permanent issues that are anchor points of the GOP. Abandon those points, and you have abandoned your base.
Border control is an old issue, but it has been brought to a head as the issue has gotten more and more out of hand. The BorderBots are a large and angry core constituency. The ANSWER to them is not to fight them or get into an abstract pissing contest. GIVE THEM SOMETHING, something BIG, something they WANT, and you keep them.
Give them their wall, and you keep Congress.
"Why, because after this issue - it will be the next issue and the next and each time you will throw your tantrum and walk out leaving us to do the real work."
Is that so?
What "tantrums" have had that effect in the Republican Party, hmmmmm?
Two thus far:
(i) Bush 41's tax hike. The tax hawks left because Bush lied to them. It was as simple as that. The Republicans regrouped, made the Contract With America, and never proposed tax hikes ever again. And the tax hawks have never threatened to walk again, have they? You have their votes in permanence...until you decide to try and raise taxes. Then they go ballistic and walk out on you.
(ii) Pro-life, Specter, Schiavo and Miers. All of these things were linked. Pro-lifers were livid about Specter, and apoplectic about Schiavo. But when Miers was proposed for a permanent Supreme Court seat, pro-lifers became incandescent and started a slash-and-burn "it's her or it's us" campaign. The President yielded, and the pro-lifers are back.
Neither they nor the tax-hawks are talking about leaving you now. Now it's the Border Conservatives. That's their issue, and there are a lot of them. What is so terrible about giving them a Fence? That is all you have to do.
"Soon, the GOP understands you cannot be depended on and they write you off. They just really do not care if you leave or not - because if not this issue, it will be the next. You are a 'dramatic quitter'. Who needs you?"
You do.
The only exception I'll take with your reply is to note that "tax hawks," "pro-lifers" and what you're terming as "border bots" are not mutually exclusive groups. I'll venture a guess, based upon many people in my acquaintance, that you're dealing with all three qualities, rolled into one person, in close to a majority of instances, in border states at least.
I disagree with your methods as they are too dangerous for the battles we are facing.
We don't need 10% here quitting, 10% there quitting - we need all working toward our goals. There has to be a way to get the word to the party without the silly tantrums and losing of elections as they are far too costly in today's environment. We are not under the former Pres. Bush's America - we have more enemies than we can handle.
I refer you to Halgr's post with his theory of our real situation and it is something to think about.
Halgr's post #2039
"Yes I am enraged over our policy of kowtowing to Mexico and terrible border security and Immigration realities that are an embarrasment.
However, I have come to the conclusion these last several years that there is a darker issue afoot.
The Leftist/Communists/NWO aren't dummys, they have a well planned and so far well implimented agenda that is taking the Constitution and America down. (Think NEA, ACLU, The Media et el)
For a while, I thought that Bush wasn't a part of that "Conspiracy"....I let my idealism and patriotism get the best of me especially after 9-11...I wanted to believe that Bush was an honorable and rightous man, above the corruption and beyond the conspiracy.
Too many things that he has done and said of late have convinced me otherwise now....and I am angry not only with the situation but with myself for allowing myself to be suckered in.....and angry that things are worse than they appear on the surface....and that my children and grandchildren are going to see America dismantled....taken to a second or third world position.
And then I am angry with myself for my lack of Faith.....not consistantly believing that God is indeed IN CONTROL and that He is going to use this evil for His Own Eternal Purposes and Prophetic Fulfillment....I forget that all too often.
The Patriot Act, the National ID card, etc....have all been or will be snuck in on the tail of public outcry...."They" did and are doing a great job of getting us closer to 1984 (Orwell) and we conservatives for the most part remain oblivious, naive and unorganized.
But the bad guys are smarter than we think...they have infiltrated even the hallowed halls of conservatism so that there is no chance of organizing or fighting the wave as it washes over us for they are everywhere and they know the who, where and why of true American Patriots....they are just accumulating data for that time when they can take us out....and we will be powerless and probably by that time, weaponless too.
I think their game plan now is to eradicate the "Middle Class"....bring wages down to the point where "we" are scrounging to survive too exhausted to voice our malcontent.
(Think NAFTA)
I've seen articles about the NWO (Council of Foreign Relations) describing a North America somewhat like the EU....to a great extent Borderless....so that America gets watered down to such an extent as to vanish. I think there is even a plan to begin to impliment this in 2010!
I'll even come further out from underneath my rock and say that the arabs are being used, set up and exploited and yes radical islam is being fanned like a fire....but alas they are not the real enemy...just an accessory to bring whatever plans the real bad guys have, to fruition. (Think NeoCons)
Also I believe that the current adversarial battle between republicans and democrats...it's all a show, smoke and mirrors to keep us from seeing the real "man" behind the curtain."
Well I for one think you posts have been pretty good.
Even though your start and stop style gives me fits sometimes.
I'm not saying that I am all that much against a fence; however, that alone, is NOT the answer; neither is pulling our troops home and stationing them on the Southern border.
One thing I will throw at you: I'm not sure I'm buying your premise about Bush 41. First off, let me say that you are correct that the tax hike caused a mass defection of the base. But I don't neccessarily agree that the reason he lost was the tax hike/defection.
I remember that year well. Clinton was a WEAK candidate. He "came back" about 3 times that year. Bush still should have won, and probably would have, even WITH the mass defections, save for 3 events:
1) Pat Buchanan uttering the words "religious war" at the convention.
2) Goofy-man entering as a 3rd party candidate on his personal vendetta against the Bushs.
3) Bush 41 looking at his watch during one of the debates.
The first drove away the soccer moms that might have given Bush the win. The second drew in not tax hawks, but deficit hawks (that was his main campaign theme), also "Reagan" union types and anti-NAFTA folks. The third gave the impression to the mushy middle that Bush didn't really want the job, so they gladly obliged. (and don't forget about the "little things" - supermarket scanner, "bozos", etc .
My premise is (and always will be) is that the election is won by winning over the mushy middle. If the base defects, you have to pull in even more of the middle, but you can still win. Bush would have STILL won (most people thought Billy-Boy was a joke) if it hadn't been for those events I listed above.
So once again, I don't buy your premise. There are many political analysts, poll analysts, etc. who post at FR. Maybe they can tell us whose premise is correct?