'Conservatism' -- Social movement or Political movement?

[Dominic Harr]

If I may, I'd like to ask for an informal 'poll' of FReepers:

There are 2 'Conservative' movements in this country.

• Social Conservatives -- concerned about moral and social issues like gay marriage, teaching of Darwinism, etc.

• Political Conservatives -- 'conservative' meant as in, "Conservative with my money". Careful. Careful with spending, with defense, careful not to jump to conclusions, careful not to put "solutions" in place that will make the problem worse.

All I would like to know is, what % of us are which? Please respond and say which, or both.

[Dominic Harr]

If it's not too much of a bother, any feedback ya'll would feel like offering would be much appreciated.

P.S. -- I put this in 'News/Activism' cuz I thought it seemed related to Activism. If it belongs somewhere else, Modz, please correct my error.

Thanks!

[conservativewasp]

I've never considered there to be 2 types. A conservative is fiscally and socially conservative, if not they are not conservative.

[thoughtomator]

I'm a political conservative and social libertarian, myself... both stem from the same root, keeping the damned government out of peoples' wallets and homes and businesses and schools and any other place except where it is absolutely necessary.

[jdm]

I agree. The "other" 'conservative' would probably (really) be a Libertarian.

[capt. norm]

It's kinda' like the way it was with our forefathers when they arrived here. It is a mix between the two. It became that way when the "politcal" forces in England began to tread on the "social" aspect of their lives and they wanted something a lot less intrusive.

[P-40]

I don't separate the two. The personal is the political is the personal.

[aliquis]

Seems a bit too simplistic. It's not nearly as clear a division as that.

[JohnLongIsland]

conservatism: it's a life style.

[calex59]

I am a complete conservative, the government should stay the hell out of my life and my wallet!

[conservative physics]

I am both.

[yellowdoghunter]

From reading the homepage and what FR is all about, I would assume most are socially and fiscally conservative.

I know I am.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

What about both? Put me in the both category. They are more related than most people think.

[GSlob]

Well, libertarians tend to be fiscally conservative. And one could advance a lot of respectable precedents for "none of my business" attitude in matters social. One would think that the Prohibition lesson has sunk.

[chesley]

I'm both.

[Bryan24]

Conservative

- Defense primary purpose of Federal government

- Balance the budget

- Eliminate the deficet unless economically unwise (can't imagine why)

- Either Flat Tax or Fair Tax

- Eliminate the Dept of Education

- Phase out Social Security, go to private accounts

- Constitutional Amendment to outlaw abortion

- Constitutional Amendment to outlaw gay marriage

- Secure the borders

- Allow controlled legal immigration

I'm guess I'm conservative on both.

[loreldan]

Also there are Nat'l security conservatives.

[snowrip]

I have a hard time equating the word "conservative" with the word "careful"... It's a synonym, but philosophically speaking (which is what we're doing) conservatives are strong rather than careful. We prefer positions of strength when it comes to defense, foreign relations, etc.

Strictly speaking, conservative as a political description means "disposed to preserving existing institutions and conditions". We are that, too.

You could also include "intellectual conservatism" as the third movement. An intellectual conservative is someone who uses facts, rather than emotion, as intellectual currency in a debate. Opinions, philosophy, political and social ideals... all follow factual evidence. As most of us at FR uphold reason over emotion, I suppose we're all intellectual conservatives of one stripe or another.

[Irontank]

John Derbyshire wrote a piece in National Review last year called Twilight of Conservatism and, in it, he referenced John Micklethwait's and Adrian Wooldridge's book The Right Nation, and he notes that, in the book, Micklethwait and Wooldridge list the six fundamentals of classical, Burkean, Anglo-Saxon conservatism:

a deep suspicion of the power of the state.

a preference for liberty over equality.

patriotism.

a belief in established institutions and hierarchies.

skepticism about the idea of progress.

elitism.

Debyshire notes that American conservatism has mostly been strongly characterized by the first 3 and mostly contradicts the last 3....although I don't know if that's always been the case.

[Vaquero]

Darwinism is not ....in my book...is not about being a social conservative...it is about being a certain type of evangelical Christian...and one does not have to be an evangelical nor does one have to be a christian to be a social conservative. following a decent moral code, and condemnation of infanticide IS part of being a social conservative......IMHO anyway. a strong belief in the constitution is also part of being a social conservative. Primarily the second amendment..(and the first also.)and the rest.

[canuck_conservative]

Conservatives:

- believe in personal responsibility and can't stand evasiveness;
- always search for the truth, wherever the chips may fall;
- prefer to cure the disease, rather than treat the symptoms;
- have common sense and believe in ethical behavior.


.... and these traits apply BOTH in social and political matters!

[RedBeaconNY]

...American conservatism has mostly been strongly characterized by the first 3 and mostly contradicts the last 3...

That characterizes me to a T. I guess I'm an American conservative.

[oldleft]

I've always thought the best definition of conservative was one who put individual freedom ahead of everything else, to the point where they would give their life for it.

A liberal is someone who puts what the think is best for society ahead of all else, to the point where they would take your life for it.

[zerosix]

The second types (what are you doing with my money) usually identify themselves with "Libertarian Party" not conservatives.

Politicians who claim to be "fiscal conservatives" are most likely neither, definitely will vote to spend more on social programs, against tax cuts as it will "expand the deficit" (when it is Congressional spending that explodes the deficit, not tax cuts) and they are never, ever conservative on Judicial power grabs, parental choice, school choice, filth on network TV, etc.

[GunsareOK]

I'd like to borrow some of your ideas and add my own priorities--

- Eliminate the deficit PERIOD. Make REAL cuts in wasteful and extra-constitutional spending!

- Fair Tax

- Eliminate the Depts of Education, Commerce, Labor, and Agriculture. Sell off half of the Federal lands. Cut needless regulation of business. Remove the EPA from cabinet status

- Phase out Social Security, go to private accounts

- Constitutional Amendment to remove citizenship status from children born in the US of illegals

- Secure the borders with a wall and 100,000 troops

- Fine employers $100,000 for EVERY illegal they employ

- Allow controlled legal immigration of those whose presence is beneficial to the country. Require that those who seek citizenship pass a comprehensive test on US history and government and speak PROFICIENT ENGLISH!

- Repeal all Federal gun control laws. They're all unconstitutional!

- Resolve marriage and abortion issues at the state level with the requirement that no state be required to recognize the same sex marriage of another state.

[Dominic Harr]

The "other" 'conservative' would probably (really) be a Libertarian.

The "other" conservatives are "politically conservative" as in "She makes conservative estimates" or "He's conservative with his money."

Not all 'politically conservative' folks believe that the govt should be in the business of 'social engineering' laws like defining what marriage is, or criminalizing victimless behavior.

• Some folks are politically conservative, socially liberal (some of these folks would be "libertarians", but not most. "Libertarian" also includes things like "Non-initiation of force" and a near anarchy-level idea of govt").

• Some are socially conservative, politically liberal (some folks are for govt intervention in marriages, consentual homosexual activity, victimless crimes, etc).

• Some folks are both -- believe that homosexuality is wrong, but there shouldn't be laws against it, that sort of thing.

The 1994 Contract with America was a 'politically conservative' movement. It swept the Rs into Congress on the basis of promises about cleaning up govt corruption, controlling the size of govt, and the like. Now it seems this movement is under assault by the Rs.

So I just thought it would be useful for me to have a ballpark idea of how the percentages breaks down here.

[oldtimer2]

both

[AmericanChef]

If you're financially conservative but socially liberal, you'll end up voting on the side of your social causes, meaning more gubmint money, so whenever someone says they're financially conservative, I never believe it. Can't occupy the same space at the same time. For further research on the matter, please watch the movie Time Cop.

In the reverse (socially conservative, financially liberal) it simply doesn't make sense. A financial liberal doesn't have the brains to be socially conservative.

[Dominic Harr]

We prefer positions of strength when it comes to defense, foreign relations, etc.

I would argue that this is just being "careful". As in 'Better safe than sorry'.

Strictly speaking, conservative as a political description means "disposed to preserving existing institutions and conditions". We are that, too.

That's the traditional def of 'social' conservatism, I think.

And personally, I've seen both Ls and Cs revert to 'emotional' arguments on far too many occasions. I am afraid that is more a matter of personality than anything else.

[Dead Dog]

Social vs. Economic Conservatism, imo, is a bit of an artificial classification. Both the "religious right" and the libertarian movements within conservatism adhere to the basic tenants of Classical Liberalism (see Von Mises).

I think Goldwater said it best, Liberalism is an emphasis on man's Material being, Conservatism on man spiritual being. It is difficult to deviate from Goldwater's observation while remaining philosophically coherent. All the above is a BS way of saying, conservatives seek to teach people to fish, liberals want to provide the fish.

[Dominic Harr]

If you're financially conservative but socially liberal, you'll end up voting on the side of your social causes

You are quite mistaken about that.

'socially' liberal does not mean 'collectivist'. I don't mean 'Liberal' as in collectivist here.

By 'Socially' liberal I mean, "against govt control of social issues.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't phrase it as clearly as I might.

[GovernmentShrinker]

"Conservative with my money" is a rather disparaging way to describe conservatives who aren't part of the religion-driven social conservative movement. I'm "conservative with my money", but that's as a proxy for "conservative with my (and everybody's) freedom". Freedom to run your personal life however you want to, on your own dime, with no taxpayer-funded "safety net" to soften the consequences of bad choices.

The effectiveness of various lifestyles should be demonstrated in the free market. The government has no business outlining what is the proper way to live, and then rigging the system so that laws and tax schemes favor people who follow the government's prescribed lifestyle. Nor does it have any business confiscating money from taxpayers whose lifestyles have led to surplus funds, in order to prop up people whose lifestyles have led to unemployment, hunger, homelessness, drug addiction, etc.

[SierraWasp]

To me, it's both, PLUS trying to "conserve" the greatest and highest traditions of Americanism both socially and politically, including world peace through actual victory! Thus there are three crucial fundamental factors!!!

[angelanddevil2]

Well, I think there are a lot of people that are fiscally conservative, but not socially conservative.

[angelanddevil2]

I am both.

[Jen from Tn.]

I agree! I need some help. Does anyone know where I can get a bumper sticker that reads: Don't Be A Girly Man,Vote Republican? My brother wants one but I am having trouble finding a web site that sells this one.Thanks so much.

[Dominic Harr]

I've always thought the best definition of conservative was one who put individual freedom ahead of everything else, to the point where they would give their life for it.

The problem with that is, it leaves out the 'social' conservatives who want govt enforcement of social rules like marriage and victimless crimes.

I think the R party got strong by combining these 2 groups under the title 'conservative'. And the R party will fall from power unless these 2 groups can come to an understanding.

In this thread, many of the folks are saying that many other of the folks are NOT conservative -- which is not right.

I think we all are Cs.

[hedgetrimmer]

Conservative and liberal are dead terms.

Now, are you an independent (one who wants to preserve the United States, and our American culture of liberty and exceptionalism) or are you an internationalist (one who is a 'citizen of the world', wants America to be just as ordinary as every other country in wages and living standards and supports supranational institutions to make it so)?

That really is the question you should be asking.

[bpjam]

Its hard to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal since social liberals want to raise taxes and increase the size of mandates and gov expenditures which pretty much screw up the whole 'fiscal conservative' notion.

Lots of liberals live very conservatives lives and raise their kids and spend their money conservatively. But they have some overwhelming guilt about their own success in life which requires them to believe that nobody else can achieve what they achieve because everybody else in inferior and requires government assistance (with somebody elses money, of course).

[Señor Zorro]

I, myself, am both.

[Dominic Harr]

Well, I think there are a lot of people that are fiscally conservative, but not socially conservative.

This is the conversation I am hoping to start here.

WE need to save the R party. November looks -- dicey, to say the least.

The two main groups of the R party are Social and Political conservatives. We worked together in '94. We can do it again.

We have Social Cs saying Political Cs aren't "real" conservatives -- and vice versa.

This is not true. We're all conservatives, just with some differing opinions.

We have to decide what we all agree on, then push for that.

[GovernmentShrinker]

If you're financially conservative but socially liberal, you'll end up voting on the side of your social causes, meaning more gubmint money,

Not so. I'm financially very conservative and socially very liberal. "Do whatever you like, but do it on your own dime" is my philosophy in a nutshell. And I don't think government should be undertaking social engineering programs of ANY kind. I don't want to be forced to pay for abstinence programs, and I don't want to be forced to pay for how-to-put-a-condom-on-a-cucumber programs.

[Dominic Harr]

Now that's a platform I could get behind.

I think most all of us of both stripes could.

And I think *if* we want another 'Contract with America', this is the kind of conversation we need to have.

[freedumb2003]

I've always thought the best definition of conservative was one who put individual freedom ahead of everything else, to the point where they would give their life for it.

A liberal is someone who puts what the think is best for society ahead of all else, to the point where they would take your life for it.

Wow -- good idea for a tag if it can be wordsmithed down!! Please dont take this wrong: is that original or paraphrasing someone else?

[GovernmentShrinker]

Not so, per my post #41.

[GovernmentShrinker]

If we're going to deal with marriage laws at the state level, then no state should be required to recognize ANY marriage. Personally, I want the government totally out of the business of defining/licensing/registering marriages.

[TChris]

Your "political" conservative is generally referred to as "fiscal" conservative by most. Both social and fiscal conservatism are important political considerations.

Personally, I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian/conservative.

[freedumb2003]

Don't know how to do it but we MUST reverse once and for all New London.

With no private property guarantees, there is no Nation.

[longtermmemmory]

You have to be careful asking this because you have many looney libertarians around here.

Short answer it is both and inseperable.

The effort to split the two is a Moby product of the Lackoff "win with words" propaganda scam to try and revitalize the left by arguing the myth that the two are seperate.

[SierraWasp]

"...enforcement of social rules like marriage and victimless crimes."

This shows me you have a problem with religious as well as social conservatives. You guys like taking advantage of the organizational skills and the dedication of religious conservatives, but boy you hate it when it comes time to respect them for what they value!!!

This observation does not come from a bible thumper. I haven't been a member of organized religion for almost 45 years!!! So don't start flamin me just because I gave ya somethin to think about...

[oldleft]

That's an original, and thank you very much (even though I missed the "y" in "they".)