Close the Border and Shut Off the Engine (Braying)

self | 6/5/06 | bray

[bray]

Not at all. If people want to attack me or my positions then they better be ready to defend those positions. When someone wants to discuss the issue respectfully I could care less whether they agree or not.

Look up and you will see exactly 2 people matched that and I just agreed to disagree but let them know I understand where they are saying.

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[bray]

What if they are legal Mexicans?

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[bray]

You are exactly right, if we can get past the emotion of this issue and solve it this is a huge winner for the American people. This issue is bigger than votes or voters and needs to be solved seriously. The first step is respecting all sides of the issue whether you agree or not.

To believe we can deport all these people is a pipe dream so we have to do the next best thing. America is watching and wants a solution and we can get it Right. This Civil War is worth fighting.

Pray for W and Our Troops

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

If people want to attack me or my positions then they better be ready to defend those positions.

LOL. Your positions have already been dissected and spat back at you but you're still running around as if nothing happened.

Are you really interested in serious discussion or are you honing your skills for an opening at the New York Times?

[investigateworld]

I know Democrats, including their paid operatives. They are truly evil and if they ever get back into power that will bring in even more future Democrats. I simply don't understand why a Republican President wants them legalized.

[bray]

If you call the infantile namecalling spit back in my face, great. So far nobody has said how we are going to replace the hard working Mexicans after they are deported. How about a serious answer. Perhaps you can be the first but I doubt you have what it takes.

Nearly 2000 people have read this and only about 50 Bordersharks have responded with their usual Thoughtnazi attacks, big deal. You are perhaps the worst of them so answer the question for once. Where do you find the replacements? Our economy is waiting....

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[bray]

I undertand what you are saying completely. His position is not far from mine. He would allow citizenship after a 10 year wait which mine is no citizenship. He has offered a starting point and is waiting to see what comes out of conference.

Bottom line is we need to close the border and we need the hard workers. There is a way to accomplish both.

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[Luke21]

Let's see:

you-logic
us- emotion

you-want civil discussion
us-wolfpack

you-free thinker
us-racist

Yes, you a quite a genius. Congratulate yourself. You agree with McCain and the rest of your betters, and you bray all right, like the MSM.

[bray]

Did you even read the post. I disagree completely with InSane so go put words in someone elses mouth. You call your post logic, it is perhaps the worst one on the thread. Please post where I called anyone a racist!

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[Spiff]

50 Bordersharks have responded with their usual Thoughtnazi attacks

Another nazi reference. You've completely lost all credibility and any argument you may have had. You complain that others here are namecalling, yet you started this thread by calling them nazis and you spend your time still calling them nazis. I'm glad to see that your village has met its idiot quota.

[bray]

Oh please, you pulling out the PC card now? Thought nazi is a term I invented years ago about people like you who stifle debate when they can't win on the merits. You unwittingly made my point, again.

Go buy yourself a sense of humor, it is called invective humor; something you and Walk on Water conservitives obviously don't posses. The other side gets the jokes just fine.

As for you decided who won or lost, this is not about winning or losing it is about what to do with millions of hard working people.

Pray for W and Our Troops

[Spiff]

Oh please, you pulling out the PC card now? Thought nazi is a term I invented years ago about people like you who stifle debate when they can't win on the merits. You unwittingly made my point, again. Go buy yourself a sense of humor, it is called invective humor; something you and Walk on Water conservitives obviously don't posses. The other side gets the jokes just fine.

You called border security advocates "SS Officers" or some such in the post that started this thread. You ignored my previous post here calling you on it.

You complain that no one is debating your ideas on their merits. That's because when you belittle the other side, call them names, and make nazi references about them, they have a hard time getting past the desire to punch you in the face to even want to try to debate with you. You started with namecalling, you continue namecalling, and that's likely what you're going to get right back at you. To expect anything else is a form of insanity.

As for you decided who won or lost, this is not about winning or losing it is about what to do with millions of hard working people.

Godwin's Law. Internet. Nazi reference. Go buy a clue.

As for "millions of hard working people" and what to do with them. They are ALL criminals, they are all here illegally. What of the hundreds of millions of LAW-ABIDING people? You know, the ones who are AMERICANS. Why don't you act a little more concerned for their benefit and a little less excited about the best way to reward the criminals? According to Rep. Steve King (R-IA), illegal aliens are responsible for the deaths of over 9,000 Americans per year and the sexual abuse of 3,000 American children. Since you started this thread, according to Rep. King's numbers, illegal aliens have killed approximately 50 Americans (murdered 24, run over 26) and sexually molested 16 American children. Why don't you go debate the benefits of rewarding illegal aliens with their families? Or the families of the 45,000 Americans killed by illegal aliens since President Bush took office. And the families of the 15,000 American children sexually abused by illegal aliens since President Bush took office. Are you going to call them "thought nazis" because they're not going to politely debate you on the topic?

Those who are the most passionate on this issue are those who have been the most effected by the invasion. We used to have a poster here who had a brother killed by illegal aliens. He was run off. We had another, a grandmother, who is constantly harassed and threatened by illegal aliens and is forced to escort her daughter to the bus stop armed with a handgun. She's been chased by human traffickers who ran her off the road. She lives less than a mile from my house. She was run off. Countless others have been run off of Free Republic by the attitudes of some around here.

I've had so many friends effected by this. I've had my own run ins with illegal aliens and human traffickers. Within eye sight, just down the road from my daughter's bus stop is a popular human trafficking pick up point (I live near the border) that has been the scene for the start of a few high speed chases. Illegal aliens tried to kill a friend of mine in my daughter's elementary school parking lot. I can go on for page after page of posts about how this effects me, my family, my friends, and the millions of other Americans. But you want to call people names and try to rationalize rewarding the criminals who cause all this carnage and mayhem. And you want to pretend that you're making jokes when you use disparaging terms to describe those who oppose rewarding the criminals. This is not just a simple political debate. This is a life and death struggle for the survival of our Republic, the protection of its citizens, preserving its sovereignty, enforcing its national borders, and upholding the rule of law.

[robowombat]

In view of your very well thought out responses the other day I thought you would find this article fascinating. Mr. Hajek appears to be a perfect example of the smaller capitalist who has adapted to the perverse incentives of the welfare corporatist economic order. He comes through loud and clear as someone who believes he has a right a right mind you to cheap undocumented illegal immigrant labor, not just taking opportunistic advantage of the avail pool of illegals. Here is the classic quote:

"Hajek and Goehring tell me they want to follow the law, but they also need laws that ensure them access to cheap immigrant labor. Americans simply won't reliably do the work, they say."

Bray is not unique in his attitudes they appear to be common within certain forms of agriculture.

The entire article is worth reading.


California Peach Farmer: Americans Won't Reliably do the Work

---

By Debra Saunders
Jun 7, 2006

"Everybody has an opinion, although most people think food comes from Safeway," muses Ken Hajek. A dentist three days a week, Hajek offers me his opinion as a peach grower the other four days. We are talking as he stands near his white pickup on 25 acres in Lodi, where he grows peaches in an orchard tucked behind a house and a yard full of cars.

Hajek had contacted me because he objected to my call for the Bush administration to get tougher on those who knowingly employ illegal immigrants.

To start, Hajek said that he doesn't believe it is his job to serve as the employment police for the federal government. Nonetheless, he explains: "We are trying to comply. We are not 'winking and nodding.'"

His labor contractor, Brad Goehring, who joins us, requires new hires to show two documents that demonstrate they can work legally. Still, he estimates that 40 percent of workers whom he hires may be illegal -- to judge by letters sent irregularly from the Social Security Administration long after harvest to alert employers that their employees' Social Security numbers don't match the worker.

Hajek and Goehring tell me they want to follow the law, but they also need laws that ensure them access to cheap immigrant labor. Americans simply won't reliably do the work, they say.

Goehring boasts that he is a fourth-generation grape grower whose German great-grandparents started as immigrant farm laborers.

"Things just aren't going to stay the same as they were for your grandpa," responds Mark Krikorian of the pro-enforcement Center for Immigration, when I phone him later. "Farmers have to face that the way autoworkers have had to face that," he said.

And, "What they're saying is, let us have this labor on the terms of the 19th century." But the world has changed, so, "They can either adjust now, or they can get it rammed down their throats later."

Krikorian has suggested that mechanization can replace cheap labor. Hajek shows me his watering system and the heavy metal pipe he moves himself -- he's 6-foot-8, by the way -- rather than hire others. He picks a green peach as he explains why machines could not do the job efficiently -- so, he says, I should not write that new technologies can do the work.

If Washington passes a law that dries up the supply of immigrant labor, Hajek argues, China will take over the peach business, just as China already has made inroads into apple juice. If the government tried to deport all of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants -- not, I should say, that any Washington politician seriously argues that is even possible -- it would devastate California agriculture. And, "If the industry fails, it's not going to come back quick."

Fine, I counter, but taxpayers have to pick up the bill for schools and health services for your cheap labor. The men argue that it is not their doing that the government provides health care and other welfare for those who come to America illegally. Hajek talks about all the businesses that benefit from his peach business. He does not talk about the cost that taxpayers shoulder.

It doesn't help that illegal immigration is no longer confined to agriculture. Goehring notes that his business turns over workers far more quickly than it used to. He faults welfare -- for paying people not to work -- as well as the fact that growers now have to compete for immigrant labor with construction, trucking and landscaping contractors. As a result, the trade journal American/Western Fruit Grower reported in January, "The Central Valley in California alone saw a shortage of 70,000 to 80,000 workers to harvest tree fruit."

Readers sometimes ask me why President Bush has pushed so hard for "earned citizenship" for illegal immigrants. I believe that Bush cares about immigrant families, who have lived in America for years and are otherwise law-abiding. Bush also cares about employers such as Hajek and Goehring.

I think Americans were OK with subsidizing cheap labor when it was limited to farm work, but now that industrial and service employers have gotten into the act, Americans cannot afford the high cost of cheap labor.

Vote. Yes, I know how uninspiring this primary seems to many Californians, but ignoring it is a big mistake. Primaries provide voters with a great opportunity -- a chance to choose the better person among like-minded candidates.

Your choice for a down-ticket office today could be a front-runner for governor in the next election. Look at your ballot. You actually will find a couple of stellar candidates who need your support because they are not big names. Vote today for better leadership tomorrow.

[robowombat]

The dysfunctional, terrorized, fragmented social order you depict is exactly what I have described as a 'Mexicanized' culture. See my post #43 above which the initiator of this thread never deigned to reply to.

You are absolutely correct in this statement:
"This is a life and death struggle for the survival of our Republic, the protection of its citizens, preserving its sovereignty, enforcing its national borders, and upholding the rule of law."

This should be emblazoned in our minds. In a profound sense the fate of the United States does hang on immigration control and effective border security. If the 'Comprehensive' destruction bill becomes law the US will become significantly turd world within a generation. While the SW will see the most dramatic negative impacts towns as far away as in the Columbia and Yakima River valleys of Oregon and Washington are already over 20% Mexican and those are largely illegal.

[Sic Luceat Lux]

nobody has said how we are going to replace the hard working Mexicans after they are deported

Bray, I thought by now you would have already jumped back over the fence with the 13 million illegals?
If you haven't made the leap yet, do you think you could go ahead and pay for hospitalization insurance for these millions of illegals -
they keep poppin up /crowding all of our emergency rooms?
Also, while you have your compassionate wallet out, go ahead a pay the auto liability insurance for all these illegals.

You will do this correct?

[Sic Luceat Lux]

Oh, I almost forgot. While you have your wallet out - make sure you use your visa card to purchase around - ahhh - 6 million new school desks as our now over crowded public schools need them for all these illegal's kids.

[Bender2]

Hey, I just invented the term thought nazi...

Very interesting.... But not funny...

I find that very funny...

Didn't you hear him? He only invented the term thought nazi!

[bray]

The SS comment was directed at people on this board that will not allow open debate. They know who they are and if you go to the immigration threads you know what I am talking about. There is only one thought, period which may be fine with you since you agree w/them but not for people who have other opinions. As for wanting to only punch me in the face must mean I'm slipping?

Finally someone willing to discuss the issue. I certainly understand your concerns and the criminality of the issue. AS long as you have mafia type operations you are going to have the criminals that come with it. We need the fence and that is going to be built.

The bigger issue is to get control the ones that are here now. We are not going to deport them, it is logistically impossible so the next best thing is the Guest Worker Program. We need the workers and we need a system to sort through them and control them.

This is not an open and shut problem and cannot be solved with a simple answer. If it could it would.

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[bray]

How insulting to demote me to the Old York Times. First I could never take that paycut and second I could never scribe poorly enough for the Stone-age press.

Where is that answer?

Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters

[Spiff]

The bigger issue is to get control the ones that are here now. We are not going to deport them, it is logistically impossible so the next best thing is the Guest Worker Program. We need the workers and we need a system to sort through them and control them.

If immigration laws were strictly enforced and employers were truly afraid of the consequences of getting caught hiring and employing illegal aliens, then most employers would stop hiring them. The jobs would no longer be available, for the most part, and illegal aliens would start going home on their own. They would self deport. A wall, fence, or other border barrier is critical to this to ensure that if our policies change again, they can't all come pouring across the border again.

You and the President offer two false choices. The choice is not only between deporting every one of them or offering them amnesty and rewards. There are other possible solutions. I can tell you that any form of amnesty, further rewards, or a privileged path to citizenship will only make the problem worse. History has proven this. And that is putting aside just how WRONG it is to reward lawbreakers.