C. S. Lewis on Creation and Evolution: The Acworth Letters, 1944-1960

The American Scientific Affiliation Science in Christian Perspective - PSCF 48 (March 1996): 28-33. ^ | March 1996 | Gary B. Ferngren and Ronald L. Numbers

[xzins]

I just can't help but wonder about the difference between the Exhibit A God who declares a piece of creation into being and it appears....bam...ex nihilo.

And the Exhibit B God who declares creation into being and....
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wait (thousands of years later)
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wait (millions of years later)
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wait (billions of years later)
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There it is. (I called this a fish in my timelessness only minutes ago, but in your time a long, long, time ago. And, by the way, ex nihilo is a lot different than you think. PS: Sovereign isn't what you think, either.)

Exhibit B God simply isn't as powerful.

[Matchett-PI]

"PS: Sovereign isn't what you think, either"

So say semi-Pelagians (Arminians). :)

[xzins]

Yes, but I've become only a semi, semi-Pelagian.

And maybe only half of that.

:>)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

Seems to me that many correspondents - whether intentionally or not - tend to equate all forms of creationism with young earth creationism thus leading to misunderstandings.

Here is an interesting survey of types of creationism: What is creationism?

Mine is not even on the list! LOLOL!

[OriginalIntent]

Bump for later.

[Taliesan]

Glad you enjoyed the quotes. I'm a collector, with so many more I keep intending to put on the page.

[Matchett-PI]

..Mine is not even on the list! LOLOL!"

I appreciate your response. I haven't had time to look at your link in any depth, yet, so won't comment on it until I do.

Glancing over it, I especially found this interesting:

[huge snip]

"... Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets exponentially longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

The third day also lasted half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

The fourth day - one billion years.

The fifth day - one-half billion years.

The sixth day - one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. ..... "

Continued here bttt

[xzins]

She is a gift, isn't she...:>)

The 6th day...the last quarter billion years.

Fascinating stuff. What worries me is the description of God that results. I assume humanity was created at the beginning of that quarter billion years or is that assumption wrong? If it is wrong, then how could instantaneous in God's domain translate to lengthy duration with many changes within time?

[Corin Stormhands]

bookmark for later

[Matchett-PI]

"What worries me is the description of God that results"

Wisdom

The book of Hebrews, while never identifying Jesus directly as Wisdom, does indicate an equivalence. In verse 3 the rare Greek term apaygasma is used to describe Jesus as the "brightness of God's glory," just as the word is used in Wisdom of Solomon (7:25-26) to describe Wisdom's radiance. Hebrews ascribes to Jesus the same functions that the Philonic/Alexandrian Wisdom literature assigned to Wisdom: mediator of divine revelation, agent and sustainer of creation, and reconciler of God and man (Wisdom of Solomon 7:21-8:1). For more on this word see here.

Hebrews also says of Jesus what Philo says of the Logos. Philo referred to Wisdom as the "charakter of the eternal Word" just as Hebrews uses this term of Jesus. Hebrews also "asserts the superiority of Jesus over a group of individuals and classes that served mediatorial functions in Alexandrian thought," including angels, Moses, Melchizidek, and the high priest. Finally, in Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, though universal in scope, by God's decree rests in Jerusalem, and is regarded as having the role of the priesthood: "In the holy tabernacle I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion." (24:10) Compare this proclamation with what is found in the Book of Hebrews chapters 3-10 describing Christ as our "high priest" ministering at a heavenly tabernacle."

Much more at the above link.

[Juana la Loca]

ping

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the excerpt from Schroeder's "Age of the Universe", Matchett-PI!

And thank you, xzins, for your encouragements! Hugs!!!

Fascinating stuff. What worries me is the description of God that results. I assume humanity was created at the beginning of that quarter billion years or is that assumption wrong? If it is wrong, then how could instantaneous in God's domain translate to lengthy duration with many changes within time?

Indeed, man was created on the sixth day (from the inception space/time coordinates) – but at what point “in” the sixth day, he was created, I cannot say. Also, I believe that Adam was not created in the physical realm but rather in the spiritual realm – the two realms intersecting at various points throughout Scripture.

But concerning domains, I assert that the Father does not “inhabit” domains of any kind – whether space/time (the physical realm) – or beyond space/time (the spiritual realm.) He may however manifest an image in His Creation to convey properties of Himself, e.g. “I am”.

Thus when He speaks relative to a time, particularly “in” such a manifestation in time - it is for our benefit – whether the inception of creation, prophesy, the current heaven and earth – or the one to come.

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past. – Ecc 3:14-15

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isa 46:9-10

Thus when He establishes a thing, it “is” regardless of domain.

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. – Mark 13:32

[Matchett-PI]

You're welcome, but here is an objection that was made a little bit ago against what Schroeder wrote. Have you heard this objection before?

"Gerald Schroeder's scheme for matching up the days of Genesis doesn't work. He has to invent the idea that "waters above the heavens" is when the Milky Way formed, but the earth wasn't even around at the time so the text is pretty meaningless if his interpretation is correct.

Also, he says that "let there be light" on Day 1 is when the cosmic background radiation thermally separated from the primordial plasma. However, the problem with that is the Bible describes the period before that event as having darkness on the surface of the earth's waters, whereas the primordial plasma was intensely bright before the light decoupled thermally from it.

Just because the light had a very short mean free path (wasn't yet statistically decoupled) doesn't mean that it wasn't there. The light in the primordial plasma was many times brighter than under a noon day sun on Earth today.

So again, if Schroeder's interpretation is correct, then the Bible text makes no sense. Bottom line: he is really stretching to make his scheme work." ~ Phil Metzger - ASA list 6/30/2006

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply!

Please understand that I do not agree with Schroeder on everything. Right off the bat, he is Jewish and I am Christian. I do however agree with his point vis-à-vis relativity and inflationary theory and thus that both statements are true: God created the physical universe in a week (as seen from the inception space/time coordinates) - and also the physical universe is approximately 15 billion years old (from our space/time coordinates on earth).

My leading in the Spirit in reading Genesis chapters 1-3 is that it is speaking to creation and events not only of the physical realm but the spiritual realm as well. In other words, it is not merely a description of physical cosmology but rather is a description written by God, the Creator, Himself about all of His creation – heaven and earth, spiritual and physical.

Thus I read with the language of Scripture before the language of science. To take the first few passages…

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The Spiritual leaning I have received is that ‘waters’ is not literally H2O - but rather spiritually the metaphor for language as in the water of life, the words of God :

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. – John 4:14

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. – Rev 22:1

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. – Jer 2:13

And likewise, the words ‘light’ and ‘darkness’ have a spiritual meaning:

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. – I Thess 5:5

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. – 2 Corinthians 4:6

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. – I John 1:5

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. – John 8:12

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. – John 12:46

BTW, if Genesis 1 were a physical cosmology textbook, the order would have been light before water.

Until 300,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe “was so hot that matter and radiation were entangled in a kind of soup in which sound waves (pressure waves) could vibrate. The CMB is a relic of the moment when the universe had cooled enough so that photons could ‘decouple’ from electrons, protons, and neutrons; then atoms formed and light went on its way.” Paul Preuss, “The Universe May Be Flat But It Is Nevertheless Musical,” Science Beat, Berkeley Lab (June 5, 2001)

I further assert that those who are stumped by the plants being created before the solar system ought to take note of Genesis 2:4-5 --- that the plants were created before they were in the earth. This also points to Genesis 1-3 dealing both with creation of the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That assertion is further supported by Genesis 2:9 and Rev 2:7. Namely, that the tree of life is in the center of the garden of Eden and Paradise, i.e. spiritual realm.

I also assert the intersection of the spiritual and physical realms - not only the types, such as the Temple and the Ark, but in appearances of Christ after the resurrection, the transfiguration, visitation of angels - and something to which we can all testify: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John, Romans 8, I Cor 2, etc.)

As another point you might find interesting, some Jewish mystics do not see the firmament as a location in space/time but rather a boundary between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. IOW, it’s not “there” but everywhere. Further, they propose the boundary is the speed the light.

I agree with them about the firmament being a boundary and not a location, but I have no leading in the Spirit whether the boundary is dimensional (space/time itself) or the speed of light.

Oh, and the word “void” has a particular significance in cosmology. All cosmologies whether inflationary theory, multi-world, multi-verse, Ekpyrotic, cyclic, imaginary time, etc. - require a beginning because they rely on geometry for physical causation.

One form of causation is if not for A then C would not be. If not for time, events would not occur. If not for space, things would not be.

But there is no space, no time, no energy, no mass, no physical laws, no physical causation, no qualia – nothing – in the void. I repeat there is no physical causation in the void.

Again with the Jewish mystics … their term for God in the beginning is Ayn Sof which means “no-thing” — One without end from which all being emerges and into which all being dissolves. God alone is “before” the beginning, transcendent, existing, all powerful and the only possible uncaused caused of all that there is, both physical and spiritual.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[Matchett-PI]

Thanks for your reply! I don't want to misunderstand you. Are you saying that you believe there are two creation accounts?

[AlbionGirl]

I don't think it really matters who, or how learned one is, when discussing matters which are unknown, and probably will be forever.

I really like C.S. Lewis a lot, and I've learned a lot from him both spiritually and as it relates to literature and myth. So here's a BTTT for a later read, and for saying that your comment really bears repeating.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Are you saying that you believe there are two creation accounts?

No, I'm not saying there were two creation accounts.

Genesis 1-3 gives the only account of creation by its observer who is also the Author and the Creator.

The difference between my assertion and the one linked as well as many others is simply this:

I am saying that Genesis chapters 1-3 apply to the creation of both heaven and earth, spiritual and physical; Adam's clock (Adamic man) begins when he is banished to mortality in Genesis 4.

The others aver that Genesis 1-3 applies to the creation of the physical realm only and some, to earth specifically; for them, Adam's clock begins when he is formed from the dust of the earth.

IOW, Scriptures are inherently Spiritual, Genesis is not a physical cosmology.

[MHGinTN]

Gosh that was eloquent! Made my evening after staying up too late ...

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear MHGinTN!