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Katherine Harris: God Didn't Want Secular U.S.
NewsMax ^ | 27 August 2006

Posted on 08/27/2006 7:01:21 AM PDT by Aussie Dasher

U.S. Rep. Katherine Harris told a religious journal that separation of church and state is "a lie" and God and the nation's founding fathers did not intend the country be "a nation of secular laws."

The Florida Republican candidate for U.S. Senate also said that if Christians are not elected, politicians will "legislate sin," including abortion and gay marriage.

Harris made the comments - which she clarified Saturday - in the Florida Baptist Witness, the weekly journal of the Florida Baptist State Convention, which interviewed political candidates and asked them about religion and their positions on issues.

Separation of church and state is "a lie we have been told," Harris said in the interview, published Thursday, saying separating religion and politics is "wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers."

"If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin," Harris said.

Her comments drew criticism, including some from fellow Republicans who called them offensive and not representative of the party.

Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Fla., who is Jewish, told the Orlando Sentinel that she was "disgusted" by the comments.

Harris' campaign released a statement Saturday saying she had been "speaking to a Christian audience, addressing a common misperception that people of faith should not be actively involved in government."

The comments reflected "her deep grounding in Judeo-Christian values," the statement said, adding that Harris had previously supported pro-Israel legislation and legislation recognizing the Holocaust.

Harris' opponents in the GOP primary also gave interviews to the Florida Baptist Witness but made more general statements on their faith.

Harris, 49, faced widespread criticism for her role overseeing the 2000 presidential recount as Florida's secretary of state.

State GOP leaders - including Gov. Jeb Bush - don't think she can win against Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson in November. Fundraising has lagged, frustrated campaign workers have defected in droves and the issues have been overshadowed by news of her dealings with a corrupt defense contractor who gave her $32,000 in illegal campaign contributions.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; churchandstate; congress; congresswoman; firstamendment; florida; foundingfathers; god; harris; katherinrharris; secular; wallofseparation
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To: an amused spectator
Your posting of the Constitutional material defining the Rights of resident atheists is of course correct.

Resident atheists? You mean, of course, atheist American citizens.

161 posted on 08/27/2006 8:49:40 PM PDT by libravoter (Live from the People's Republic of Cambridge)
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To: an amused spectator
I sloppily interchanged the two terms,

Problem solved. Just wanted to make sure you weren't using a religious test to confer constitutional rights.

Good night.

162 posted on 08/27/2006 8:51:05 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: A. Pole

"Equally mean is to ask self-avowed materialist what matter is"

Well, that's not difficult -- matter is anything that exists in spacetime. The set of material objects includes everything from Mars to the humblest photon.

The challenge for the materialist is to reduce entities that are not in spacetime to those that are. For example, beliefs, sensations, numbers, inferences and so forth are not logically or causally reducible to observable behavior and material objects in any obvious way. Dualism may be the solution to the mind-body "problem," which means we don't have a problem at all.


163 posted on 08/27/2006 8:53:07 PM PDT by JHBowden (Speaking truth to moonbat.)
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To: an amused spectator

"It's interesting that Kant and his writings were coeval with the Founders. I'm wondering if the solution to the posit of FreedomFighter78 about the Founders being able to defend the Rights without the Creator lies here.

Hard to say how long it took to digest and interpolate the main writings of Kant. I'll have to look into the matter."

I wasn't really thinking of Kant - he didn't really gain much of a following until the mid-late 1780s (I believe his 'Critique of Pure Reason' was published in 1780 or 1781) - but he certainly provides another basis for natural rights that is not dependent on a Creator.

I was thinking of Hobbes, Locke, and (to a lesser extent) Rousseau - the social contract thinkers.


164 posted on 08/27/2006 8:54:56 PM PDT by FreedomFighter78
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To: libravoter
Resident atheists? You mean, of course, atheist American citizens.

Yes, atheist American citizens. You caught me cheating on the side of the posit "what if atheists formed their own country in the late 1700s". I admit to the slyness. :-)

165 posted on 08/27/2006 8:58:02 PM PDT by an amused spectator (Hezbollah: Habitat for Humanity with an attitude)
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To: an amused spectator

Apparently not to you.

Your arrogant, superior tone simply cements my point.


166 posted on 08/27/2006 8:59:44 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: A. Pole

All State sponsored religions disappeared from the country in the Founder's time.

Amazingly enough, that concept began to die with the borth of the United States.


167 posted on 08/27/2006 9:02:55 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: an amused spectator
An atheist's Constitutionally defended rights are the same as a non-atheists...the government is forbidden to violate those rights period.

As far as an atheist's unalienable rights, they are based on the fact that no one has a right to take their life or their liberty under any circumstance, regardless of religious belief.

168 posted on 08/27/2006 9:13:21 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: an amused spectator
"Madison says nothing about a "wall" in these quotes."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

169 posted on 08/27/2006 9:15:56 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: FreedomFighter78
Some of my thinking is framed in terms of the Civil War (which was in the timeframe of 6 decades later, of course). The descendants of the Founders were really tied up about the religion thing, and it motivated much of the viciousness of the conflict (God's on our side! No, He's on our side!)

If such attitudes persisted so long after the Enlightenment, I wonder how the argument of non-religious Rights would have been received by the majority in those times. It's a moot point in this Age.

170 posted on 08/27/2006 9:16:53 PM PDT by an amused spectator (Hezbollah: Habitat for Humanity with an attitude)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
An atheist's Constitutionally defended rights are the same as a non-atheists...the government is forbidden to violate those rights period.

FreedomFighter78 already pointed this out. The current discussion revolves around an atheist's Natural Rights, and how he would have asserted them at the time of the Founding.

171 posted on 08/27/2006 9:19:58 PM PDT by an amused spectator (Hezbollah: Habitat for Humanity with an attitude)
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To: JHBowden
Well, that's not difficult -- matter is anything that exists in spacetime.

Well, you say where matter exists. I asked what matter is.

In April 2005, in Windsor Castle, prince Charles married Camilla Parker Bowles. We have the time and space location. Is their marriage made of matter?

172 posted on 08/28/2006 5:41:15 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: Luis Gonzalez
All State sponsored religions disappeared from the country in the Founder's time.

Not true. The Congregationalist Church remained the state church of Massachusetts well into XIX century.

173 posted on 08/28/2006 5:43:39 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: FreedomFighter78
Since all humans necessarily have a right to be human (it would be absurd to argue that a human does not have the right to be human), and since these other things (life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness) are an inherent part of being "human," it follows that all humans have a right to life, liberty, etc.

This is a nice tricky "reasoning" worthy for a good lawyer. Unfortunately it does not hold water.

It is a inherent part of being alligator to eat other living beings which are passing by. And since it is absurd to deny the right to be alligator for a alligator it follows that the alligator in zoo has the right to eat the human visitors instead of being fed with some dog food.

But what a right is? This context defines a right to be derived from natural tendency and not as a moral or legal category. We can agree that humans want some things because they are human. It does not mean that it gives them any rights. This that your desire or need is natural does not mean that you are untitled to follow it.

174 posted on 08/28/2006 5:57:13 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: orionblamblam
> God and the nation's founding fathers did not intend the country be "a nation of secular laws."

And yet... that's what the founding fathers created.

Amateurs...

175 posted on 08/28/2006 6:01:16 AM PDT by Live and let live conservative
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To: Aussie Dasher

This loonie-toonie mouth-running gives ammunition to the "Bush Stole The Election" crowd -- now they can say that Harris rigged it because she thinks God told her to.


176 posted on 08/28/2006 10:51:40 AM PDT by steve-b ("Creation Science" is to the religous right what "Global Warming" is to the socialist left.)
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To: an amused spectator
Perhaps you could shed some light on where an atheist's Natural Rights would come from

Religious rights are protected by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

177 posted on 08/28/2006 10:57:17 AM PDT by steve-b ("Creation Science" is to the religous right what "Global Warming" is to the socialist left.)
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To: an amused spectator
I'm taking the position that a nation of atheists would have been incapable of writing the Declaration or the Constitution, or defending their break with the nation of England, which was ruled by a king who had a divine Right to his position.
They would have infuriated the nations of that place and time, and all men's hands would have been raised against them.

HAHAHAHA!! Yeah, like the abolute monarch Louis XVI "raised his hand" against those radicals who were trying to establish a republic in rebellion against his brother Christian king.

178 posted on 08/28/2006 11:02:53 AM PDT by steve-b ("Creation Science" is to the religous right what "Global Warming" is to the socialist left.)
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To: an amused spectator
Rejecting the premises under which the Constitution was crafted is a rejection of the Constitution itself.

Nonsense. Tycho Brahe's observational tables of planetary positions were crafted under the premise that the planets moved in circular cycles and epicycles around the Earth. By your "reasoning", that renders them valueless.

179 posted on 08/28/2006 11:07:18 AM PDT by steve-b ("Creation Science" is to the religous right what "Global Warming" is to the socialist left.)
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To: A. Pole
Did not the scholastics argue that the natural law can be discerned by reason alone, without the aid of revelation?
180 posted on 08/28/2006 2:34:11 PM PDT by curiosity
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