Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
Amen.
I have observed eternity (in the Bible), and gathered from what is known about eternity (in the Bible), and have been informed about eternity (from the Bible), and believe about eternity (what the Bible says).
Given Webster's definition for the word "understand", my post was appropriate and also directly responsive to your question.
I believe this statement falls into your loosely defined "condemnation" category.
How silly. And how totally unreasonable. Are you really wanting to say that anyone who disagrees with you is condemning you. If you do, then you must also agree that anyone you disagree with - you are condeming. To say that one finds one philosophy better than another is not a condemnation - it is a statement of what that person finds to be of better quality. If a person prefers a brick house to a straw house because they find the brick to be better - it is not a condemnation of straw. Someone could add a condemnation of straw if they chose to, I suppose - but that is not what happened here.
Now that is silly.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
un‧der‧stand /ˌʌndərˈstænd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-der-stand] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -stood, -stand‧ing. –verb (used with object)
1. to perceive the meaning of; grasp the idea of; comprehend: to understand Spanish; I didn't understand your question.
2. to be thoroughly familiar with; apprehend clearly the character, nature, or subtleties of: to understand a trade.
3. to assign a meaning to; interpret: He understood her suggestion as a complaint.
4. to grasp the significance, implications, or importance of: He does not understand responsibility.
5. to regard as firmly communicated; take as agreed or settled: I understand that you will repay this loan in 30 days.
6. to learn or hear: I understand that you are going out of town.
7. to accept as true; believe: I understand that you are trying to be truthful, but you are wrong.
8. to construe in a particular way: You are to understand the phrase literally.
9. to supply mentally (something that is not expressed). –verb (used without object)
10. to perceive what is meant; grasp the information conveyed: She told them about it in simple words, hoping they would understand.
11. to accept tolerantly or sympathetically: If you can't do it, I'll understand.
12. to have knowledge or background, as on a particular subject: He understands about boats.
13. to have a systematic interpretation or rationale, as in a field or area of knowledge: He can repeat every rule in the book, but he just doesn't understand.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME understanden, understonden, OE understondan; c. D onderstaan. See under-, stand]
And I think that these two are clearly more in line with what I was asking:
to perceive the meaning of; grasp the idea of; comprehend
to be thoroughly familiar with; apprehend clearly the character, nature, or subtleties of: to understand a trade.
And so I ask you specifically, do you completely "grasp" the meaning of eternity - do you fully "comprehend" all that eternity contains, can you describe the nature and extent of eternity, can you describe, from experience (are you familiar with) the incorporeal and corporeal substance as well as the light of eternity?
And if so, please do
Then I would suggest that that it is not your decision to make - since you are not the Pastor of Saddleback. Bono will also be there - as well as Bill and Melinda Gates and others who do not believe what you do about abortion or homosexuality.
My point has always been that it was unneccessary to condemn Rick Warren. That there is a difference between criticizing and condemning and that posts in this thread crossed the line from criticism to condemnation.
I am not going to go back and read all your posts. If you claim you haven't condemned Mr Warren - I will take your word for it. But it then becomes all the more questionable to me why you have engaged me with so many posts. I told you early on that I had no interest in discussing your dogma or your doctrine. But you chose not to respect that. You say that you want to be sure the Gospel as you understand it is properly represented - but that does not require you writing to me. And, if it is the case, that you do not condemn Rick Warren and since what I am taking issue with is the condemnation of Rick Warren - I see no good reason for you to have written to me about docrtrinal matters that you want to be sure are included in this thread.
read post #467
Rick Warren's an apostate as far as I'm concerned.
If you are saying that my disagreeing with you is condemnation - then you must also say that your disagreeing with anything is also condemning it. So please acknowledge that or clarify your statement.
If "condemning" means to pass a judicial sentence on, then it can't be said of me.
As a Southern Baptist pastor, this makes me want to throw up on par with God "spewing them out of his mouth." God help us!
It is most intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that it is not my decision in regard to who speaks at Warren's AIDs conference.
But let me see, though...who would I schedule, if I was coordinating an AIDs conference: Piper, MacArthur, my Pastor and Associate Pastors, Mohler, Packer, Dr. Jim Binney, Ravi Z., and on, and on.
Warren has accepted the mantle of "America's Pastor". He trains 400,000+ pastors and thousands of churches. As such, he should be held to a Biblical standard (Acts 17:11).
I know that, in your reality, in your Shangri-La, you wouldn't have it that way...But that is the way it is in the New Testament Church.
And...If you post on a public forum, you will get responses.
By the way, given all the good works that Warren has done...Are you any more willing to accept Christianity because of them?
To me that is kind of like the philosophical question - Does a falling tree really make any noise when nobody is around to hear it? That type of thinking is so arrogant and self-absorbed...nothing exists unless my personnel experience deems it so.
Does your experience-based faith hold to any absolute truth (other than faith is by experience and God is love...but you also recognized his justice because you stated that it is only his responsibility to judge and condemn (not ours)...So you recognize that God is justice as well. By what experience did you gain that faith)?
This was one of those things you realize right after you post it. Argh. Of course our church did the PDL thing, too. That's what I get for trying to do too much at the same time.
And then I found the jacket cover for this book which made my "argh" all the larger. The back of the book has recommendations from Billy Graham, Bruce Wilkinson, Lee Strobel and Max Lucado, all Christian men. It was one of those "Doh!" times.
When I wrote that I was apparently thinking only of some the folks I know who have benefited from this book, as I know people who gave their life to the Lord in our Bible study group while reading the PDL book. I also know Christians who have benefited from this book.
Getting back to your questions:
Is The PDL a guide to a 40 day Spiritual Journey? What is a Spiritual Journey?
I think those are good thought-provoking questions but I'm not sure if most of those reading the book would ask such questions. The non-Christian could be seeking spiritual answers, read the above and think that in the book he may find for what he's looking. Some Christians reading the book may not have a deep spiritual relationship with God, read the above and think that in reading the PDL it also might have something he needs.
I can say that from personal experience. My nephew Tim gave his life to the Lord while we were going through the PDL. Tim said he never heard it put that way. Something he read in the PDL reached his heart, he gave his life to the Lord that night and was baptized with his wife a couple of weeks later. Now Tim is growing spiritually. For me one of the greatest miracles in life happens when somebody gives their life to the Lord, especially when it happens right in front of you.
As I see it, the questions you asked would only have significance to certain people but certainly not everyone. I hope I'm being clear in why I don't have a problem with Warren talking about a a 40 day Spiritual Journey. Can you understand from where I'm coming?
As an aside: I've read more of Rick Warren's recent activities and from all appearances he seems to be heading in the wrong direction.
Yeah, for me the Friday date doesn't really change anything. Considering Obama's political positions on social issues, he shouldn't speak in Warren's church or any church for that matter
So for instance the post that was written to me saying that Rick Warren :
Give us a break! Barack HUSSEIN Obama is a liberal opportunist, and Rick Warren is a self-serving, egotistical, narcissistic money machine. Follow the money.
is a statement reflecting condemnation.
I understand that this is a public forum – and yes I expect to get some strange responses – but that also means that I may ask people what their intention is in writing to me.
I am pleased that Rick Warren is having an AIDS conference. As I have said so many times, I praise the man for his good works. Some people spend their time judging others and splitting hairs. Some people actually do good works.
I find it silly for people to be so upset that Rick Warren is having an AIDS conference and is inviting about 30 people to speak – some of which they don’t agree with doctrinally. That is just so silly, imo. Talk about arrogance. Some people really want to control others.
By the way, given all the good works that Warren has done...Are you any more willing to accept Christianity because of them?
LOL. I support Christianity in the sense that I speak out for Christians to be able to celebrate Christmas and use the word or have a cross on city’s flag or symbol etc. I have little interest in fear-based religion in general however. Since I believe that God is Love (and not that God is also Justice – but that Love is Just) I do not believe that God is cruel and so your religion doesn’t interest me.
Do you ever consider opening your mind to other possibilities? Do you ever wonder how you can “know” anything you haven’t experienced?
Does your experience-based faith hold to any absolute truth
Would you agree that Truth is that which is eternal, invulnerable and unchangeable?
Would you agree that when you are first introduced to an idea you have a level of *awareness* of that concept or idea? And that if you then ponder and apply that idea – or live the awareness that you will come to an *understanding* of the concept or idea? And then if you continue to ponder and apply and live the understanding that you will in time come to a *knowing* of that which you had first become aware of?
So, I take it that you cannot answer my specific questions about the nature of eternity and I will assume that you do NOT understand eternity. I accept that you believe in it because of a book that you value – but that you have no personal experience and do not know what you are talking about when you bring up the subject of eternity. In other words – if we continue to talk and you bring up eternity - I will point out that you have no idea what you are talking about other than a few words you have read in a book.
It is common courtesy on this forum to at least reference a post number. Since you quoted me, I will just say that I was not condemning anyone as you state. I was merely pointing out fact, based on years of research and references that have been previously published, such as articles in news sources.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.