Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
I wouldn't allow the clown in my Southern Baptist pulpit.
Sorry, I don't accept that that is not condemnation. Nor do I accept that you have any way of knowing what is in Rick Warren's heart. Are you really claiming to know his heart?
I didn't post the content that you quoted.
Perhaps if you thought about it for ten seconds and read the whole post you would see that I was trying to explain what I meant by condemnation. I said *for instance* which normal people understand to be an example of what the person is talking about.
No where in that post did I say that you had written it to me. Lighten up!
LOL - Either answer my specific questions about eternity or be honest enough to admit that you have no idea really what it is.
And so I ask you specifically, do you completely "grasp" the meaning of eternity - do you fully "comprehend" all that eternity contains, can you describe the nature and extent of eternity, can you describe, from experience (are you familiar with) the incorporeal and corporeal substance as well as the light of eternity?
And if so, please do
If there are "bad examples" used, distorted scriptures used, out of context quotations, false teachers used...Is that correctly handling the Word (2 Tim. 2:15)?
And why are they used?
Because Warren is just sloppy?
Or was it purposeful (and what are the implications, if so)?
What about wrong conclusions made due to the above-mentioned?
You told me, in a previous post, that context was everything... but you, now, appeal to experience rather than accurate context and direct comparison to scripture.
I am glad that you had that experince...but that was God's grace at work, not PDL.
And experience never trumps the truth of scripture and our requirement to compare with scripture and to refute, even avoid, if necessary.
He isn't just heading in the wrong direction...He started out in the wrong direction and has lapped start a few times.
I thought I heard the Bible Answer Man define that about a decade ago, or so.
The internet is your friend:
the meaning of the word incorporeal
the meaning of the word corporeal
And so I ask you specifically, do you completely "grasp" the meaning of eternity - do you fully "comprehend" all that eternity contains, can you describe the nature and extent of eternity, can you describe, from experience (are you familiar with) the incorporeal and corporeal substance as well as the light of eternity?
And if so, please do
...He who has ears, let him hear"...i'm really sorry that you don't have the proper discernment to make any realistic observations. Not my problem.
I have no problem discussing what I choose to. There is nothing to solve there.
Then don't bitch when you're presented with dogma. After all, everybody else on this thread has the same capabilities. There is actually plenty that you have yet to solve.
I have condemned no one here...even you... who seem to change your position with just about every post.
i have not changed my position at all. i'm sorry for your lack of reading comprehension...or possibly confusion in that you have been attributing statements made by one poster to others on this thread.
You have however made condemnations on this thread. It has been demonstrated consistently. You have been informed of this fact, thus i must conclude that you are either self-decieved or a liar, or you're simply trying to provoke a response deliberately.
What I have had to say here has been born out. This thread contains needless condemnation of Rick Warren
You consistently fail to realise that Warren has condemned himself through words and actions. Nobody is harming Warren in any way.
Those who have condemned Rick Warren are adding to the suffering in this world. If you are unable to grasp that condemnation causes hurt - that is your problem - not mine.
If you are unable to provide anything to this thread except a demonstrable lie that is your problem -not mine.
And yet you refer to yourself as "us" and "we". Are you speaking for some group? And if so, do they influence your opinion?
Is English your primary or first language? If not, you really need to work on it a bit before attempting to post here. If so, i really feel sorry for you.
As long as you keep posting untruths, you can expect rebuttal.
You still have nothing to say. That's too bad. You obviously know a lot of words.
Quite correct. That's why I emailed Warren's church directly with my concerns. Oh, but asking hard questions about abortion and homosexuality is "condemnatory" nowadays.... tisk tisk.
In the event....the impossible hypothetical event... that I get a satisfactory answer, I'll be sure to post it here. To date I haven't heard any response
As I noted a post ago, I emailed Saddleback about it. If they answer me I'll post the answer here.
Here we go again....*sigh*
Telling people that they're wrong, isn't cruelty... no matter how "condemned" they may subjectively feel. Have you ever tried explaining to a homosexual to his face, that his entire way of life is just plain wrong and that everything he knows, loves, and cares about, needs to be utterly abandoned if he intends to follow the Christian way? If you've ever had that conversation, you know that no matter how kindly, gently, and sensitively you do it, the person is going to *feel* condemned. Until he makes the change... then, from the other side, he'll "get it" finally -- as I hope you someday do.
Exposing a public wrong, isn't cruelty either, it's a necessary corrective measure. If Warren receives a tidal wave of hard questions, he'll be forced to confront his policy and either change it, or (in the event that it's not the awful departure from truth that it now appears to be), to give the reasonable explanation to which the public is entitled.
You can think what you want, just as I can. I don't know what's in Warren's heart, other than he never wastes an opportunity to appear on camera, regardless of the venue. He gives multiple interviews, and rarely if ever, mentions the Gospel of Jesus Christ. On one recent interview on national TV, he never once mentioned Jesus Christ. Isn't that what the Gospel is about? The new-age Emergent Spiritualists have taken a tangent and are missing the mark entirely.
Sure, but who is Warren's target audience and would they understand what he is saying? That's the issue as I see it. As I previously said, we need to understand the culture and audience to whom the Bible was written, and the same way we need to understand the culture and audience to whom Warren is writing.
As you said, Warren's book is written to the Christian and non-Christian. Because Warren's audience is mixed it is incorrect to parse his words when only considering part of his audience. When people do that they are building an argument based on incomplete or skewed data. Both the non-Christian and Christian have to be considered in all issues in regards to the PDL. Because some Christians are in the audience some Christians are not going to ask what a 40 day Spiritual Journey is.
If there are "bad examples" used, distorted scriptures used, out of context quotations, false teachers used...Is that correctly handling the Word (2 Tim. 2:15)?
Warren could have used better examples or worded his examples differently. I wouldn't say Warren used distorted scriptures, but he did use translations to help the reader better understand what he was trying to say. Warren was merely talking about how God uses 40 days for different historical events. Perhaps that was the thought spawning the idea behind Warren's PDL.
As far as I know, Billy Graham, Bruce Wilkinson, Lee Strobel and Max Lucado didn't have a problem with Warren's book when they endorsed it, and they don't have a problem with it now. I won't put God in a box. I think it's obvious God is using Warren's ministry to reach people for Christ and I don't have a problem with that.
You told me, in a previous post, that context was everything... but you, now, appeal to experience rather than accurate context and direct comparison to scripture.
What I've said is the Holy Spirit is convicting people to a saving knowledge of God through Warren's ministry. Because I related the story of my nephew Tim in no way means I appeal to experience. You are mixing two completely different issues which is precisely why I stated at the outset that I want to take this one point at a time.
I am glad that you had that experince...but that was God's grace at work, not PDL.
Yes, it was God's grace. We are saved by grace through faith and not by any works at all. Yet in all our praying and witnessing to my nephew Tim, it was Warren's PDL book that worded the gospel message in a way Tim understood. And that happened with two others as well.
Here's an example. It's not a perfect example but it is an example that might help. Here's what Paul said in Philippians 1:18 (NIV):
But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.Paul was talking about how some people in his time were preaching the gospel out of envy, selfish ambition, not sincerely, and this to cause problems for Paul. Others preached out of goodwill, in love. Paul said it didn't matter either way because Christ is preached.
Now, you can say Warren isn't preaching Christ but his book talks about the cross, sin, and from all appearances, the Holy Spirit is convicting people to a saving knowledge of God through Warren's ministry. The Church, the Body, is growing through Warren's ministry. Do you think otherwise?
(And I believe that a sloppy/inaccurate message translates to sloppy actions/behavior...just maybe that is some of the fruit that is being witnessed, now, via the Syria incident and the Obama incident.)
So is the standard church growth or God's Word?
So...should have the Bereans (Acts 17:11) have considered Paul's target audience and potential church growth prior to searching the scriptures to see if what Paul said was so?
Why did it matter to you that CDL's link was inaccurate about alleged missing content in the PDL...but it appears not to matter to you that The PDL is inaccurate relative to God always using 40 days to prepare or transform someone for His purposes (and then, "bad examples", as you stated, or inaccuracies, are used to reinforce the incorrect statement?
In any audience, why would it be okay for a pastor to use unbiblical examples, distorted scriptures (check out the John 4 reference that I previously mentioned) and use known false teachers?
As an aside...Scripture tells us that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and that his demons masquerade as workers of righteousness...How is a Christian able to discern the difference between the false thing and the real thing? Have a good Thanksgiving!
However, your experience-based faith obviously can't provide answers to the same questions you asked of me.
And...eternity would make a great topical Bible study. I suggest that you undertake such a worthy endeavor.
But what I can grasp is what the Bible makes clear...It is appointed unto man once to die and then to be judged. First, is my name/your name, written in the Lamb's Book of Life (by faith in Christ). Second, we all will have to give an account for what we did in life ("the things done in the flesh" is what scripture says).
So...given what I know the Bible says about eternity...spirit or flesh doesn't rank right up there in the eternity equation for me.
Have a good Thanksgiving!
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