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'Crusader' Takes On eBay Over Sales of Relics
AP on AOL News ^ | November 23, 2006

Posted on 11/24/2006 2:49:16 PM PST by rightwingintelligentsia

(Nov. 23) -- Hardly an hour goes by without Thomas Serafin or one of his cyber-sleuths checking what eBay has to offer.

They're not hunting for bargains and never place a bid. Their interest is bone shards, bits of wizened flesh and a contemporary twist on the sacred and the profane: How the ancient trade in the most coveted religious relics has moved into the global flea market of online bidding.

"You can find bone fragments supposedly from St. Augustine being hawked on the Internet along with trinkets and antiques. There is something very wrong here," said Serafin, a professional photographer and Catholic activist based in Los Angeles, who has led an expanding campaign since the late 1990s to block the online sale of objects purported to contain the remains of Christian saints.

Last month, Serafin's group, the International Crusade for Holy Relics, opened a new front that's truly worthy of a David and Goliath metaphor: a call to boycott eBay.

It seeks to pressure the world's largest online auction site to close alleged loopholes used to bypass its ban on allowing bids for human remains.

(Excerpt) Read more at articles.news.aol.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ebay; relics

1 posted on 11/24/2006 2:49:19 PM PST by rightwingintelligentsia
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

Lol! Chicken bones.


2 posted on 11/24/2006 2:52:08 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
I deserve these items, not you or anybody else. /s
3 posted on 11/24/2006 2:55:36 PM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ("Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto")
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
Some recent offerings on eBay include "the air" that Christ breathed, the wing of the Holy Spirit and "the hand" of St. Stephen.

HMMMMM. I wonder what they want for shipping?

4 posted on 11/24/2006 3:06:31 PM PST by OSHA (I am become OSHA, destroyer of beers.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

Is selling these things on the Internet any worse than using them to stimulate contributions from the "faithful"? This just sounds like a new twist on an old scam, to me.


5 posted on 11/24/2006 3:07:54 PM PST by hunter112 (Total victory at home and in the Middle East!)
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To: hunter112

Make sure I know where you're buried, maybe one of your relatives will buy your bones from me... then again, maybe not... i'm sure you wouldn't care by then. I dare them to litigate too.


6 posted on 11/24/2006 3:25:14 PM PST by AliVeritas (And you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, that I am the Lord your God.)
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To: Coleus; Salvation; Fudd Fan; defconw; cpforlife.org

ping


7 posted on 11/24/2006 3:25:53 PM PST by AliVeritas (And you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, that I am the Lord your God.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

I was in contact with this guy at one time. He's very...ummmmm...intense.


8 posted on 11/24/2006 3:27:36 PM PST by BlessedBeGod (Benedict XVI = Terminator IV)
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To: AliVeritas; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; ...


9 posted on 11/24/2006 3:30:36 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, geese, algae)
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To: AliVeritas

Sorry, I plan on being cremated. Maybe you can get my ashes with a Dustbuster, but all my kids will care about is how much money I left them. They sure won't venerate any non-financial remains I leave behind, if any.


10 posted on 11/24/2006 3:32:04 PM PST by hunter112 (Total victory at home and in the Middle East!)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
WTG,
bring it too light so now the freaks know where they can
buy human remains.

Brilliant! Yet very strange.

11 posted on 11/24/2006 3:34:33 PM PST by MaxMax (God Bless America)
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To: Anti-Bubba182

**Lol! Chicken bones.**

But, but the items are not as advertized? I want my money back!


What is my bid on Origen's private parts that he himself cut off?


12 posted on 11/24/2006 3:45:18 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Islam --Dark age politics masquerading as a religion.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

The Idea! Holy Relics on ebay! There is a sucker born every minute.


13 posted on 11/24/2006 3:47:52 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: BlessedBeGod
I was in contact with this guy at one time.

Not to pry, but how did you come to be in contact with him?
14 posted on 11/24/2006 3:48:38 PM PST by rightwingintelligentsia
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

If this groups wants the items so badly, they are welcome to bid and buy them up.


15 posted on 11/24/2006 3:51:56 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If the Romans had nukes, Carthage would still be glowing.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
sounds like this guy should piss off
if he wants it let him buy it
16 posted on 11/24/2006 4:09:04 PM PST by Charlespg (Peace= When we trod the ruins of Mecca and Medina under our infidel boots.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

Their website had a message board, which I guess only their group was supposed to be able to see. I didn't hack it, I just clicked on the link to it and it took me right there. (I assume the board was supposed to have some kind of security to limit access but that it wasn't working and they didn't realize it.)

After reading their board for a while, I was horrified when I recognized one of their members who posted on the board as a seller of relics on eBay. I figured Serafin didn't know -- or else this guy wouldn't be allowed to be a member of their group. I emailed Serafin back and forth a few times, giving him all the particulars, and the guy ended up being booted from the group. It was pretty nasty. The guy had supposedly been recommended by a bishop.

Serafin was just barely polite and never really thanked me -- just let me know by cc'ing me on an email to someone else that the guy was no longer a member. He then made sure the board was no longer accessible to the public.

I think he was mad that I'd read the board, but I hadn't done anything wrong since anyone could read it. And if I hadn't, the "bad guy" wouldn't have been caught as soon, or maybe even at all. I thought I was doing him a favor.

Anyway, my impression was that Serafin seemed to think he walks on water. He's doing a good thing, but he seems to have quite an ego about it.


17 posted on 11/24/2006 4:19:29 PM PST by BlessedBeGod (Benedict XVI = Terminator IV)
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


18 posted on 11/24/2006 4:44:12 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia; Coleus; rmlew

I have an antique Greek cross that is supposedly a reliquary (it's thick and looks as though it could be opened). Have no idea how old it is or which saint it's supposed to be.


19 posted on 11/24/2006 4:51:00 PM PST by firebrand
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To: firebrand
Looks like this:


20 posted on 11/24/2006 4:59:04 PM PST by firebrand
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
I never understood the whole "relics" thing anyway.

Jesus Christ is alive! You can talk to him through prayer anytime also.

Why seek after bones of dead people?

Sheesh.

21 posted on 11/24/2006 5:10:26 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
Because the bones are holy, sanctified by the righteousness of the saint to whom they belonged.

-A8

22 posted on 11/24/2006 5:19:34 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

do you know if people are buying them for quasi-religious (or magical) reasons or just to try to turn a profit later on?


23 posted on 11/24/2006 6:00:53 PM PST by drhogan
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To: drhogan
I don't know; maybe both.

-A8

24 posted on 11/24/2006 6:01:43 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

1 Timothy 2:5

25 posted on 11/24/2006 6:02:09 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: adiaireton8
Because the bones are holy, sanctified by the righteousness of the saint to whom they belonged.

And your scriptural reference for this is...?

26 posted on 11/24/2006 6:02:32 PM PST by Jotmo (I Had a Bad Experience With the CIA and Now I'm Gonna Show You My Feminine Side - Swirling Eddies)
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To: SkyPilot

I guess with some people, holy chicken bones are more important than being rational. I wouldn't waste a lot of time with these numbskulls -- they don't want to know the truth.


27 posted on 11/24/2006 6:05:10 PM PST by Silly (Not being... Silly)
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To: Jotmo
And your scriptural reference for this is...?

Your question assumes the truth of 'sola scriptura', which people in the Catholic and Orthodox communions have never held. But even so, here's a scriptural reference for you: 2 Kings 13:21.

-A8

28 posted on 11/24/2006 6:09:16 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: SkyPilot
True, but that in no way means that relics are not holy.

-A8

29 posted on 11/24/2006 6:10:07 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
Your question assumes the truth of 'sola scriptura', which people in the Catholic and Orthodox communions have never held.

Good point.

But even so, the Scripture referenced tells me only that touching Elisha's bones can bring a dead man back to life, not "The bones (of those whom the Catholic Church call saints.) are holy, sanctified by the righteousness of the saint to whom they belonged."

That's a pretty big leap.

30 posted on 11/24/2006 6:31:16 PM PST by Jotmo (I Had a Bad Experience With the CIA and Now I'm Gonna Show You My Feminine Side - Swirling Eddies)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

I've heard of businesses being started on a wing and a prayer, but...


31 posted on 11/24/2006 6:34:30 PM PST by DanielLongo (Don't tread on me)
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To: Jotmo
It is only a leap if that is all the data you have to go by. But if you study early Church history, you see many testimonies concerning the healing power of the relics of the saints. St. Augustine, for example, talks about people being healed as the relics of saints are carried through the streets on feast days.

-A8

32 posted on 11/24/2006 6:48:21 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

Which brings us back to 'sola scriptura'.


33 posted on 11/24/2006 6:52:23 PM PST by Jotmo (I Had a Bad Experience With the CIA and Now I'm Gonna Show You My Feminine Side - Swirling Eddies)
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To: AliVeritas

They can sell my ashes all they want. It won't be me any longer.

I love tombstones and graveyards. One of my favorite:

"Here lies the body of Solomon Pease.
The Pease aren't here...only the pod.
The Pease shelled out, and went home to God."


34 posted on 11/24/2006 6:55:23 PM PST by bannie
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To: SkyPilot

God glorifies His holy ones even through their mortal remains: "and as a man was being buried, lo, a maarauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the moan touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet." (II Kings 13:21)
Relics aren't just another thing if you believe in the resurrection of the body--they are destined to be revitalized and spend eternity in glory.


35 posted on 11/24/2006 8:17:09 PM PST by Hieronymus
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To: Hieronymus; All
Relics aren't just another thing if you believe in the resurrection of the body--they are destined to be revitalized and spend eternity in glory.

Why would anyone believe in the resurrection of the body? The soul is resurrected, not the body.

36 posted on 11/25/2006 10:09:38 AM PST by olde north church (Hannibal ante portas, the dems don't even ask him to wipe his sandals.)
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To: hunter112
Is selling these things on the Internet any worse than using them to stimulate contributions from the "faithful"? This just sounds like a new twist on an old scam, to me.

Not really sure where relics are being used to scam contributions from the faithful. But yeah, the selling of relics has always been against Catholic teaching. Can't say for sure about other religions.
37 posted on 11/25/2006 4:57:24 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: SkyPilot

Ditto that. Praying to bones. yeeuck.


38 posted on 11/25/2006 4:59:50 PM PST by bonfire
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To: hunter112
Maybe you can get my ashes with a Dustbuster, but all my kids will care about is how much money I left them.

Wow, what a pair of uplifting and fulfilling statements.
39 posted on 11/25/2006 4:59:54 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: SkyPilot
I never understood the whole "relics" thing anyway. Jesus Christ is alive! You can talk to him through prayer anytime also.

Why seek after bones of dead people?

Sheesh.

You should spend your time worrying about your own faith rather than that of others.
40 posted on 11/25/2006 5:02:33 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: adiaireton8; SkyPilot

It means that relics are unnecessary.


41 posted on 11/25/2006 5:06:35 PM PST by Ditter
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To: rightwingintelligentsia; glock rocks
I'll stop buying on eBay when you pry my cold dead finger off the Buy it Now button!!
42 posted on 11/25/2006 5:06:43 PM PST by tubebender (Growing old is mandatory...Growing up is optional)
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To: Ditter
So are cars, clothes, phones, computers, etc.

-A8

43 posted on 11/25/2006 5:40:56 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

Cars, clothes, phones etc???? What are you talking about? I mean relics are not necessary to have a relationship with God. Relics are not necessary if you want to pray to Jesus, he will hear you whether you have a relic or not.


44 posted on 11/25/2006 5:50:25 PM PST by Ditter
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To: Conservative til I die
I don't "worry about" my faith at all.

If there is anything I am certain about, it is that Jesus Christ is who He said He was. Moreover, I know I am forgiven and I am saved from hell because of Him.

The bible warns against false teaching (i.e. the bones of dead people are "holy"). To point out false teaching is biblical.

Here is what Paul said:

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron...If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed" (1 Timothy 4:1-2,6).

Peter warned of false teachings (see 2 Peter 2:1-3).

You tried to admonish me, yet the scripture supports my saying that worshiping bones is not biblical, and we should not be afraid to say it is so.

If you would like further proof that the bible tells us to refute false teachings, here are some other scriptural references:

Matthew 7:15-23; Matthew 24:10; Mark 22:23; Acts 20:25-31; Romans 16:17-18; Galatians 1:6-9; Colossians 2:8,18-19;
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 1:3-7; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-8,16; 1 Timothy 5:3-10;
1 Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:14-18; 2 Timothy 3:1-9; 2 Timothy 4:1-5; Titus 1:9-16;
2 Peter 2:1-22; 2 Peter 3:14-18; 1 John 1:18-27; 1 John 4:1-6; 2 John 7-11; Jude 3-19

45 posted on 11/25/2006 5:51:45 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: Ditter
I agree that there are lots of things that are not "necessary", but many things that are not "necessary" are helpful.

-A8

46 posted on 11/25/2006 9:16:27 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

Ive got a sixpack of Holy Beer I want to sell


47 posted on 11/25/2006 9:24:17 PM PST by woofie (creativity is destructive)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

maybe we can get a device from e-bay (or sharper image) that would measure the holiness that is attached to or is inside of various objects.
you could point it at the object, in the way they use geiger counters, and it would give a reading.
the ad on e-bay would list the reading (verified by an independent examiner), so that no one would get ripped off.

i think this would solve the whole problem, and end the debate.


48 posted on 11/29/2006 4:10:26 PM PST by drhogan
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