Ford's plug-in hybrid takes fuel cell approach

AP via Houston Chronicle ^ | Jan. 22, 2007 | KEN THOMAS

[thackney]

Big hurdles include the cost: millions per car

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WASHINGTON - Ford Motor Co. is joining the list of automakers working on a plug-in hybrid — with a twist. It combines the convenience of plugging in your car with a zero-emissions hydrogen fuel cell.

Ford today is to display what it calls the world's first drivable fuel cell hybrid electric vehicle with plug-in capability. Called the Flexible Series Hybrid Edge, it represents the latest offering from automakers hoping to stake a claim to the next generation of highly efficient alternative automobiles.

Gerhard Schmidt, Ford's vice president of research and advanced engineering, said the vehicle, based on the Ford Edge crossover platform, gives the company "the ultimate in flexibility in researching advanced propulsion technology."

"We could take the fuel cell power system out and replace it with a downsized diesel, gasoline engine or any other powertrain connected to a small electric generator to make electricity like the fuel cell does now," Schmidt said.

Ford was showing the plug-in fuel cell at the Washington Auto Show, where lawmakers and government officials were viewing a number of advanced vehicle technologies. The show opens for media previews on the eve of President Bush's State of the Union address, which is expected to include energy proposals of concern to the auto industry.

Several automakers have been working on similar technologies. General Motors Corp. will display the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in electric car recently unfurled in Detroit with a range of 40 miles on the battery and more than 600 miles with a gas engine.

DaimlerChrysler has been pursuing plug-in hybrids and said Friday it would expand its test fleet in the U.S. to more than 20 Dodge Sprinter vans. The company's chairman, Dieter Zetsche, and Chrysler Group Chief Executive Tom LaSorda were expected to discuss clean diesel technology at the auto show on Tuesday.

Volkswagen will be showing the Golf GT TSI for the first time in the United States. The vehicle's supercharged gasoline engine has 170 horsepower while garnering 40 miles per gallon in the city and 48 mpg on the highway. VW estimates the vehicle gets 638 miles on one tank of fuel.

Ford's plug-in hybrid Edge operates in battery only mode for the first 25 miles, moving at speeds of up to 85 miles per hour. When the battery is depleted to 40 percent, it shifts to the fuel-cell mode, which recharges the battery for 200 more miles of range.

The 336-volt lithium ion battery pack can be fully charged overnight — in about eight hours — with either a 110 or 220 volt outlet, and the engine produces gas mileage of about 41 miles per gallon. Drivers who travel fewer than 50 miles per day would get more than 80 miles per gallon, Ford said.

The combined plug-in-hydrogen vehicle offers a new way to address some of the challenges of hydrogen fuel cells. The pollution-free technology could provide a sustainable energy source through the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, but it faces a number of hurdles with its size, weight, cost and lack of a fueling infrastructure.

Ford reduced the fuel cell's size, weight and cost by half and said its approach would double the lifespan of the fuel cell's stack.

Mujeeb Ijaz, Ford's manager for fuel cell vehicle engineering, said the changes were "a great step to commercializing" the vehicle.

Ford has not set a date when it would be available.

The automaker said the vehicles cost millions of dollars each and commercialization remains hindered by a lack of a hydrogen infrastructure and the cost of lithium-ion batteries.

[thackney]

You won't discuss the science of why you think this works. Why is that? You admit that the change of liquid to vapor expands the volume but you claim it needs to happen before the combustion chamber. The combustion chamber is the ONLY place in an engine that converts the energy of the expansion of gases into mechanical motion.

Decades ago a guy at work bought a new car. He bragged about how great his mileage was, and as it got broke in, the mileage was astounding. This guy was such a jerk his co-workers were adding about a pint a day to his tank until the first time he took it in for service. Then they quit. He hounded the dealership and GM for months about what they did to his car, threatened lawsuits, etc. It was rather hysterical, kind of like your claims.

[fabian]

you remind me of the evolution guys who throw false science at you claiming the truth. And you dismiss the facts of actual experience of many good people. Very strange. Why don't you just admitt that you may be wrong on this and really look into Mr. Pogues invention instead of believing lies written about him?

[thackney]

Again:

You won't discuss the science of why you think this works. Why is that?

[Eaker]

Amazing!

[freedombird]

Nobody can use the patent....some guy from New Jersey renewed the patent.

How do I know?.....because I bought it from him over the internet.....I mortgaged the house and cars to do it...it was too good of an opportunity to pass up....a mere $70,000!!!

I am having buyers remorse though.....can't seem to make a working model......I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong....but when I get it to work, I'll make millions........

Just a question though, Are supercarburators supposed to be made out of wood? Seems a bit peculiar.....oh well....back to my shop!!

[thackney]

Yes, I've run into a couple of these conspiracy theorists lately and decided to take the time to explain. It his hard to figure out how they can believe oil companies can control automobile manufactures from every country since the 30's preventing anyone from ever making a working magic carburetor. How much control do you think the Seven Sisters had over USSR and China in the 40's, 50's and 60's?

[2ndClassCitizen]

Thanks for the laugh.

[fabian]

yes, it's amazing that us conspiracy folks believe these made up stories which happened to appear in various newspapers at the time of Charles Pogues invention. It's all just a fabrication of our crazy imaginations. I actually did talk about the science as I understand it with the vaporization increasing the volume and explosiveness of the fuel. You don't address any of my very valid points including my own experience. And the fact of high mileage vehicles greatly reducing the gas tax that governments collect. I am sure that you under estimate the darkside of people of which many are not even aware of. They think they are doing right by the stockholders and employees. By the way, do you know what the world record for the most mpg's for a car is?

[thackney]

it's amazing that us conspiracy folks believe these made up stories which happened to appear in various newspapers at the time of Charles Pogues invention

Bigfoot, UFO's and Elvis. What a great proof, just ask Dan Rather about stories.

I actually did talk about the science as I understand it

And the problem is you don't understand it.

with the vaporization increasing the volume

Yes it does. As I explained, if you vaporize inside the combustion chamber, the energy of the expansion is transfered to mechanical energy helping to move the car. If it is done in the carburetor, no transfer to mechanical energy takes place.

and explosiveness of the fuel

As I explained, the speed of the chemical reaction is increased, but the chemical reaction of combustion is still the same reaction. Regardless if the combustion takes place in 5% of the duration of the piston's power cycle or is more evenly spread out over nearly the entire power (expansion) cycle, the energy released is the same. However, the later provides less shock and stress on the mechanical equipment.

You don't address any of my very valid points

I address them over and over and you continue to ignore the responses.

including my own experience

Up to this point, common courtesy has prevented me from calling you a liar. Why is it you do not drive such a high mpg vehicle today?

And the fact of high mileage vehicles greatly reducing the gas tax that governments collect.

Some governments like ours. Other governments like China (who also manufacture automobiles) actually subsidize fuel cost and higher mileage vehicles would lower their governments expense.

I am sure that you under estimate the darkside of people of which many are not even aware of.

Back to the crazy conspiracy theories.

By the way, do you know what the world record for the most mpg's for a car is?

You keep distracting from the basic questions, but go ahead and tell us.

[fabian]

Well, all I can say is if I am lieing about my 100% improvement I am a very sad person indeed. It is true and as I had explained to you, it was told to me by an ebayer who sells hydrogen systems for cars that the oil companies have reformulated the gas making it much more difficult to vaporize. I tried to duplicate the results I got in 1982 but it didn't work. At eagleresearch.com you can see that the world record for most mpg's is 7000. I'm sure it's a very small vehicle but it still totally refutes your arguements. And if you look into their site you will see an honest inventor that is doing alot of good...not a liar either. Hope you will open your mind a little and realize that you have been taught something wrong. Either that or you know the truth and are playing games? I don't know.

[thackney]

Ethanol is widely available now. It has a much higher vapor pressure, far easier to vaporize than gasoline.

I'm sure you will have no trouble at using it to prove your claims.

[thackney]

Hope you will open your mind a little

That is really an amazing statement coming from you. Quite entertaining, really.

[thackney]

At eagleresearch.com

Since this web site does not appear to exist, why don't you provide a link? A search for it only comes up with other fantasy stories that reference it, but not the actual site. Looks to me like more cut and paste by conspiracy theorists and no real facts.

[fabian]

whatever...I can't change your mind if you don't believe what is so very obvious with just a little bit of research. I think you're playing games actually...

[fabian]

sorry...it's http://www.eagle-research.com/products.html...I missed the - thing.

[thackney]

Hey thanks for the working link. I did search before without finding the site.

That place is hysterical. I really liked the one that pulled free electricity out of the air to run small appliances. Have you bought yours yet? How are there fuel savers working out for you?

At one place the claim the highest mpg was 7,000 and it was 9,000 in another. But no other information at all. No date, no vehicle information. No description of the engine or what devices were used. Just two conflicting mileage claims. You sure convinced me, somebody wrote it down on the Internet so it MUST be true.

Bigfoot, UFO's and Elvis. That is all and a really sad attempt at that.

[thackney]

If you get interested in reading some actual testing data, you could start with some people who really want find something that works so they can require us to buy it then tax it.

Gas Saving and Emission Reduction Devices Evaluation
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/reports.htm

[fabian]

I'm sure George Wiseman will provide you with the details of the 7000 mpg world record if you asked him. I think he is pretty busy providing customers with some real mpg improvements to put alot of stuff on his site. Here's another true story of college student competion where the winners achieved over 3000 mpg's. Before you call it a fraud please check it out. It's not made up. I'm sure if there technology were to be put on an average size car it would drop those numbers alot but at over 3000 it would still be incredible by car makers standards. I hope you can admitt that you are just simply misinformed on high mpg's inventions.http://www.drivers.com/article/898/

[thackney]

I'm sure if there technology were to be put on an average size car it would drop those numbers alot but at over 3000 it would still be incredible by car makers standards.

Be very sure. That competition uses a 3.5 Hp engine.

A small car like the Ford Fusion with the economy engine produces 160 Hp. That is over 45 times 3.5 Hp. You are comparing mustard seeds to Watermelons. That example provides Zero believability to the claim on Eagle-research.com. And which claim are you stating is true and which one is false? They both were equally used with the same lack of information.

[thackney]

I think he is pretty busy providing customers with some real mpg improvements to put alot of stuff on his site.

I think his is busy proving the wisdom of P.T. Barnum and George Hull has never gone out of style.