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Why F-22s Cannot Fly Into Tomorrow
The Strategy Page ^ | March 14, 2007 | James Dunnigan

Posted on 03/15/2007 4:35:28 PM PDT by IonImplantGuru

Recently, American F-22 fighters were sent, for the first time, across the Pacific, to Japan, for a training exercise. This would be the first time the aircraft would cross the International Date line, where it is tomorrow, and the aircraft's GPS and navigation software would handle the date change.

There were problems.

All off a sudden the software that ran the navigation and communications systems wasn't working too well. Being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, this was a problem. Some of the pilots were able to reboot their software and make the problem go away, but this did not always work, so all the aircraft turned around and returned to Hawaii. Those aircraft that still had malfunctioning navigation software, followed other aircraft back.

The contractor quickly found and fixed the problem (the routines for crossing the International Date Line, and changing the date, were not well thought out and tested.)

To quote Murphy's Law; "Whatever can go wrong, will, and at the worst possible time."


TOPICS: Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: aerospace; f22; murphy; raptor
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And these aircraft are HOW expensive?
1 posted on 03/15/2007 4:35:32 PM PDT by IonImplantGuru
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To: Tijeras_Slim; FireTrack; Pukin Dog; citabria; B Knotts; kilowhskey; cyphergirl; Wright is right!; ..

pinging Aeronaut's aviation ping list.


2 posted on 03/15/2007 4:37:34 PM PDT by IonImplantGuru (()
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To: IonImplantGuru

So the pilots can't navigate without GPS? I hope they realize that in a shooting war with China GPS won't be available.


3 posted on 03/15/2007 4:37:58 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: IonImplantGuru

They are worth every penny we spent.

The F-15 has never been shot down by another aircraft in combat.

At recent tests in the mid-west, F15's were shot down many times by F22's and no F22's were shot down.


4 posted on 03/15/2007 4:39:44 PM PDT by stockpirate (To learn about John Kerry, FBI files and the VVAW read my about me page on FR.)
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To: Rodney King
I hope they realize that in a shooting war with China GPS won't be available.

GPS won't be available to China.

5 posted on 03/15/2007 4:41:36 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: IonImplantGuru

ROTFLOL

Millineum meltdown, heheh.
And we thought 12/31/1999 23:59 was behind us.

Maybe they should try putting wings on a DeLorean - Back to the Future.


6 posted on 03/15/2007 4:41:49 PM PDT by RebelTex (Help cure diseases: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1548372/posts)
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To: stockpirate

I can't wait to see the F-22s go against the Iranian air force


7 posted on 03/15/2007 4:42:16 PM PDT by rockthecasbah (The Shillelagh resides in Heritage Hall)
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To: IonImplantGuru

That would be annoying having to re-boot in the middle of a dog fight.


8 posted on 03/15/2007 4:43:44 PM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: IonImplantGuru
And these aircraft are HOW expensive?

Hey...it was an EASY fix.

Expensive would be going on into this age of military aviation without them.

They are currently the most awesome war bird up there. Just be glad they are OURS.

9 posted on 03/15/2007 4:44:11 PM PDT by capt. norm (Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.)
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To: rockthecasbah

One F22 should be sufficient.


10 posted on 03/15/2007 4:44:19 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: Jet Jaguar
GPS won't be available to China.

I'm fairly certain that the first thing China or Russia would do in a war is take out the GPS system.

11 posted on 03/15/2007 4:44:57 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: IonImplantGuru
the routines for crossing the International Date Line, and changing the date, were not well thought out and tested.

I see this all the time at NASA. But, it's diversity and process that count now, not how well things work. As long as the software engineer has a bad accent and is not a white male all is good. And the process... spend four out of five days doing all of the ridiculous paper work, rather than engineering, and it's even better. Oh, then it splats into the side of Mars but that's OK.

12 posted on 03/15/2007 4:45:56 PM PDT by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Rodney King

They should have inertial navigation system (INS) back up.


13 posted on 03/15/2007 4:46:21 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: rockthecasbah

Well the film footage would be fun to watch. Too bad we can't get seats on the ground to catch the show.


14 posted on 03/15/2007 4:46:31 PM PDT by stockpirate (To learn about John Kerry, FBI files and the VVAW read my about me page on FR.)
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To: IonImplantGuru

U.S. Air Force fixes computer glitches in 87 F-22s


http://www.f-16.net/news_article2210.html


The six Raptors were participating in an inaugural 12-hour flight from Hawaii to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan on Feb. 10 when a "navigation anomaly" maimed several computer systems on the aircraft, an Air Force colonel said.

The computer glitch, which occurred as aircraft crossed the International Date Line, crippled navigation systems and hindered communications.

One pilot was able to contact contractor Lockheed Martin to troubleshoot the error during the flight, the Air Force said. Several pilots attempted to reboot the system with no success.

Luckily for the Raptors, there were no weather issues that day so visibility was not a problem which meant that with their refueling tankers as guide dogs, they were able to safely return to Hawaii.

"They needed help. Had they gotten separated from their tankers or had the weather been bad, they had no attitude reference. They had no communications or navigation," said Retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd. "They would have turned around and probably could have found the Hawaiian Islands. But if the weather had been bad on approach, there could have been real trouble."

F-22 engineers and maintainers were able to locate the problem within hours and fixed the glitch in a matter of days on the aircraft. After successful testing, the aircraft continued their planned first overseas deployment to Kadena.

It was a computer glitch in the approximately 1.7 million lines of code. Somebody makes an error in a couple lines of the code and everything goes.

It is common for pilots to experience operational problems during initial deployments and there are no plans to conduct further testing on the F-22 Raptor.

The Raptor, with a price tags of roughly $70 billion including development costs, has endured periodic delays and political attacks. Initial plans called for 750, but only 183 are now slated to be built under the proposed 2007 fiscal defense budget.


15 posted on 03/15/2007 4:46:56 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: IonImplantGuru

That darn Win98 was just not made to keep dates correctly.


16 posted on 03/15/2007 4:47:34 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: AZRepublican
That would be annoying having to re-boot in the middle of a dog fight.

Especially getting both hands free to hit (Ctrl)(Alt)(Del) at the same time.

17 posted on 03/15/2007 4:48:51 PM PDT by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: IonImplantGuru

"And these aircraft are HOW expensive?"

Oh.. Wow. Mr. Ion Implanter.

Complaining about a super-cruise stealth fighter.

Whoop. tee. doo.

Pull a vacuum on the wafers and flip the switch! Difficult!

How expensive are those? Can we buy them at walmart? I didn't think so.


18 posted on 03/15/2007 4:49:16 PM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Jet Jaguar
GPS won't be available to China.

I am going to assume that you know how many GPS satellites that there are in service and how many reserves that we have.

Further I will postulate that you know that China has proven that they can shoot down satellites.

Finally, if China is practicing a global fighting war without satellites and the US is not then which country is screwed?

19 posted on 03/15/2007 4:50:09 PM PDT by Eaker (You were given the choice between war & dishonor. You chose dishonor & you will have war. -Churchill)
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To: Rodney King
I'm fairly certain that the first thing China or Russia would do in a war is take out the GPS system.

Does the US military not have a back up plan?

20 posted on 03/15/2007 4:50:41 PM PDT by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Rodney King
I'm fairly certain that the first thing China or Russia would do in a war is take out the GPS system.

That worries me, big time. They've already practiced this whole routine.

I have always thought that the Chicoms were behind the sudden malfunction and disappearance of the Galaxy IV satellite. Mysterious "malfunctions" was the excuse given to the public, but no real explanation.

Ever since Clinton sold them the technology via a convoluted route for them to contribute to his campaign, I have been waiting for the "other shoe to drop".

21 posted on 03/15/2007 4:51:04 PM PDT by capt. norm (Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.)
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To: alfa6

Ping!


22 posted on 03/15/2007 4:51:16 PM PDT by STARWISE (They (Rats) think of this WOT as Bush's war, not America's war-RichardMiniter, respected OBL author)
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To: Red Steel
They should have inertial navigation system (INS) back up.

The inertial navigation does not need outside help after it is initialized for position. (you only have to give it a starting point, and it figures out the rest.

23 posted on 03/15/2007 4:51:47 PM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: IonImplantGuru

Dumb question here. Why do military aircraft care what the local time is? I thought they operated on Greenwich Mean (Zulu?) time.


24 posted on 03/15/2007 4:52:11 PM PDT by BigBobber
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To: IonImplantGuru
What do you expect the prime contractor is Lockheed Martin!

The F-22 was their "golden project", funny to see how LM management wins again.

Cheers,

CSG

25 posted on 03/15/2007 4:52:23 PM PDT by CompSciGuy (Duncan Hunter for 2008 - no flip-floppers or RINO's please...)
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To: IonImplantGuru

Scotty: "Aye, sir. The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."


26 posted on 03/15/2007 4:56:10 PM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: Jet Jaguar

I swear to God, who the hell released this type of information?????


27 posted on 03/15/2007 4:57:09 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8...down to 3..GWB, we hardly knew ye...)
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To: Rodney King

You're wrong; they keep a sextant in their flight bags.


28 posted on 03/15/2007 4:57:22 PM PDT by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: IonImplantGuru

"Mistakes were made..." Hey, shit happens at any price. Question is, what to do about it. Apparently, this was an easy fix and all planes returned safely. I doubt, in a dogfight, pilots would be wondering where they were as much as they want to know where the other guy is.


29 posted on 03/15/2007 4:58:43 PM PDT by caisson71
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To: Eaker

I am aware of the satellites we have. We can turn them off to everybody and the Military can still use them.

We have work-arounds as well.


30 posted on 03/15/2007 4:59:00 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Jet Jaguar
One pilot was able to contact contractor Lockheed Martin to troubleshoot the error during the flight, the Air Force said. Several pilots attempted to reboot the system with no success.

LM: Ring, Ring - Lockheed Martin, Help Desk.

F22: Yeah, my systems are down!

LM: Sure, sorry about that. I'll need to get your name, call sign and extension to log your problem. All of our support people are tied up on other calls at this time. CLICK!

31 posted on 03/15/2007 4:59:23 PM PDT by Jambe
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To: stockpirate

Yep -- over 240-0 during Red Flag exercises, and the Opfors were allowed to "re-spawn" or regenerate after being shot down, AND the Raptors functioned as AWACs for their team mates once they had fired all their weapons. OPFOR pilots reported that even when they COULD see the Raptors, they COULD NOT put a weapon system on them. Period.

No Raptor has yet to be a kill in ANY exercise against America's best - even with lopsided ROEs.

It's worth EVERY penny as an air superiority weapon system.


32 posted on 03/15/2007 4:59:32 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Jet Jaguar

"... Had they gotten separated from their tankers or had the weather been bad, they had no attitude reference. They had no communications or navigation..."

That's what's called 'flying by the seat of your pants' - like they did in WWI bi-planes (except at mach 2, heheh).

"Initial plans called for 750, but only 183 are now slated to be built under the proposed 2007 fiscal defense budget."

That's so sad - we need those 750 - and even twice that would be better.  From the reviews I've read, the F-22 is an awesome bird.

33 posted on 03/15/2007 5:00:00 PM PDT by RebelTex (Help cure diseases: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1548372/posts)
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To: IonImplantGuru

That'll teach 'em to be early Vista adopters! :D


34 posted on 03/15/2007 5:00:31 PM PDT by britemp
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To: RaceBannon

Honestly, I think the article was based in part to a USAF press release.


35 posted on 03/15/2007 5:01:50 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Jambe

"LM: Ring, Ring - Lockheed Martin, Help Desk."


I hope the pilot has no problem understanding the Indian accent.


36 posted on 03/15/2007 5:06:36 PM PDT by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: Red Steel

Our sub's INS once had us scorching across the Shara at 60 knots during one med run Needless to say, we were quite impressed with ourselves.


37 posted on 03/15/2007 5:08:25 PM PDT by Nuc1 (NUC1 Sub pusher SSN 668 (Liberals Aren't Patriots))
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To: RebelTex

If it can't be flown via needle, ball and airspeed, it is a platform, not an airplane.


38 posted on 03/15/2007 5:10:58 PM PDT by wrench
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To: rockthecasbah
I can't wait to see the F-22s go against the Iranian air force

Two slapped together with 30 year old spare parts F-14s and a dozen 40 year old F-4s hardly constitute an Air Force ;-)

39 posted on 03/15/2007 5:11:03 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: BigBobber

You have a point there. Probably the best solution is for Zulu time to catch up with actual geophysical time.


40 posted on 03/15/2007 5:11:11 PM PDT by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: AZRepublican

Reboots? Time change problems? Windows machines?


41 posted on 03/15/2007 5:11:52 PM PDT by sbMKE
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To: Rodney King
I'm fairly certain that the first thing China or Russia would do in a war is take out the GPS system.

Incredibly easy to do too. There are only 24 sats on 6 planes, in non-synchronous orbit. Given enough time, all 24 satellites eventually pass over their country. China has recently demonstrated its ability to take down satellites, and the Sovi..err...Russians developed that capability decades ago. Heck, we even publish the orbital information for each of them. Go to heavens-above.com, type in GPS-9, and the website will tell you EXACTLY when it will be "in firing range", and give its orbital data.
42 posted on 03/15/2007 5:12:39 PM PDT by Arthalion
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To: AZRepublican

or to try to converse with a customer service rep in India.


43 posted on 03/15/2007 5:14:46 PM PDT by mcshot ("If it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features." paraphrased anon.)
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To: Blueflag
No Raptor has yet to be a kill in ANY exercise against America's best - even with lopsided ROEs.

Never, ever drink Air Force kool-aid.


44 posted on 03/15/2007 5:17:56 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: IonImplantGuru

And I thought it would be the lack of a flux capacitor. Do I need to worry about this if I take my GPS in my car across the IDL? For those with blue water boats is this problem for them?


45 posted on 03/15/2007 5:18:12 PM PDT by ThomasThomas (I just can't say Democrat with out the ick)
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To: RaceBannon

I know what you're saying...Crazy,ain't it..


46 posted on 03/15/2007 5:18:31 PM PDT by silentreignofheroes (When the Last Two Prophets are taken, there will be no Tommorrow!)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

But did it register a kill in the exercise? Or is that just a convenient frame grab from a training video?

It ain't Kool Aid when it's a Red Flag. They fly/fight to win those ACM exercises.


47 posted on 03/15/2007 5:26:45 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Jambe

LOL

Tech Support: "Please for to be rebooting your computer, sir."


48 posted on 03/15/2007 5:28:38 PM PDT by SquirrelKing ("When a coin in the carbon pot rings, out of global warming hell a soul does spring." - Timothy Ball)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird

The US Military cannot get rats out of Walter Reed Hospital.

A backup plan???? For Chinese takedown of our GPS?

It will be called SURRENDER.

We are unilaterally disarming and shipping our military/industial complex to China.

You had better learn Mandarin!


49 posted on 03/15/2007 5:31:30 PM PDT by Jonathan
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To: A.A. Cunningham

HEre ya go ...


http://www.langley.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041765

http://www.afa.org/magazine/feb2007/0207raptor.html

http://www.f22-raptor.com/media/documents/aviation_week_010807.pdf




The 'kills' the Opfors got were not F-22s. Ya hafta read down deep, but there are no published kills of an F-22 I have EVER seen/read. Only ambitious hangar flying .. about 'the one I got but they wouldn't score it.' ;-)


50 posted on 03/15/2007 5:33:02 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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