Posted on 04/18/2007 2:02:53 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
The deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech on Monday has reignited an emotional debate about whether students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus.
Virginia Tech, like most universities around the country, forbids students from having guns on campus. But as an increasing number of states have passed laws that allow people to carry concealed weapons, gun advocates from Virginia to Utah have also challenged the academic policies that prohibit weapons at colleges and universities.
[Big Snip]
"Almost every college that has looked at this issue feels they can do a better job of protecting their students by banning guns on campus and taking responsibility to provide good security," says Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington. "I'm not sure any campus would like to advertise, 'Come to our campus. We have more guns per capita than any other campus.' "
When the issue is debated again as expected this year in Virginia, gun-control advocates will be lining up with members of the academic community in opposing an expanded presence of guns on campus. They believe the problem is that the country already has too many guns.
"We have access to these weapons, and there are people who get angry, and with that access they will use them," says Jim Sollo, vice president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, a group with 800 members that advocates gun-control measures. "I fear that we will continue to have mass shootings here in the United States."
But gun advocate Mr. Van Cleave contends that control is not the solution. "Gun control only works with the good guys," he says. "Good people obey the laws. The people you're worried about don't. I don't think [the campus shooting] is going to bode well for gun control."
(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...
You act like that's some challenge.. Weird. It's like having a car. Do you drive drunk with it? Close your eyes and let go of the wheel at 90mph? You simply get a good holster and keep it concealed. It doesn't have a mind of its own. The gun will not leap out and attack people. Like I said, maybe I'm some exceptional genius, but to me it's simple. Just get a good holster for IWB, or a pocket holster for a small revolver. If you're trying to be so rational about it, please explain what is wrong with what I said above?
And you are supposedly the "most libertarian conservative" on FR?
Responsibility is learned. Treating legal Adults like children will ensure they never learn that responsibility.
Your “wild west” strawman assumes a GENERAL population.
We’re again, I’ll say it the umpteenth time, talking about a critical mass of a huge proportion of “collegiates” in a small community who are undeniably too heavy on the irresponsible side, as shown by heavy drinking, rioting, and a compendium of the immoral side of society which is taking over.
It is not the same thing. Not at all the same as talking about *laws* for the *general* populace.
Wow, if colleges are that out of control, perhaps they should be disbanded and moved to online-only..
I suppose that’ll happen anyway over time. But seriously, you don’t think it’s possible for over 21 year olds (teachers and students) that pass the qualifications to be able to carry at a school?
Also, you think people don’t already before and after this?
*sigh* POST #163. Don’t compare the population at large with a good mix of people with a huge mass of teenagers often alone together who are too heavy in being irresponsible.
Over 21 is not ‘teenager’.
My point was that it is ridiculous to restrict an innocent person's access to something (guns, knives, cars, gasoline, poison...) on the gounds that, left unsafe, a thief could steal it and use it in a crime.
“Saying it’s legal to carry on grounds should be legaslitated to not be a lawsuit issue, like the castle doctrine laws.”
Apparently you are not aware of all the silly lawsuits about “negligence”, guns involved or (many) not.
Fact is that is how it is nowadays.
Until we change to “LOSER PAYS”, you concern yourself with all angles of liability.
This isn't "hysterics", this is just re-iterating what you have already stated.
Treat people like adults, they will act like adults. Impose extra restrictions on them, and you are taking on the mantle of the Nanny State. You know what is better than they do for them.
Look, we both support the Second Amendment. I just feel that it means exactly what it says. "Shall not be infringed". I started shooting when I was 7. I joined the Marines at 19. I'm going on 38 in another month here. I've never had an ND, a safety violation, or broken a firearms "law". I'm nothing special either.
Treating the mass of college students as a "special class" of Adults who require extra hand holding will only ensure that even fewer of them exercise their Rights or even take the time to learn how to do so safely. More barriers to their Rights is not a good thing.
Capice?
Isn't it you perpetuating the "college kids exercising their Rights is scary" line? I'm trying to dispel the "hysteria".
Come on.... let's not go there.
In Texas, anyplace that doesn’t have a certain sign is legal to carry (more or less, besides education and bars and sports and other exceptions).
So all places *without* such signs are liable? I don’t think so.
Let me take this in two seperate instances.
Should guns be carried in schools? No. A school should be a place of higher education. As we have seen by recent tragedies, schools can and are also turned into scenes of carnage by those who are not responsible enough to have a gun.
So, only those who are NOT responsible enough to carry a gun should have one.
I mean, this type of person is not going to care about the law, whether buying, or carrying, or shooting someone else for no reason.
You have just disarmed all the responsible, law abiding, able to take out the irresponsible citizens.
The shooter now has a free fire zone just as it happened at Virginia Tech.
Also, what does the property owner think of guns on his/her property? I support the 2nd, but I refuse to have a stranger on my property with a weapon.
If it's a private university you have a point. If it's a public university it is owned and operated by the state. Are you saying that the state has the authority to over ride the Constitution of the United States and ignore the 2nd Amendment?
The is a difference between private property and publicly owned property.
The state should have no recourse but to allow carrying a weapon unless there are specific threats to harm or kill another. (As in a courtroom when threats have been made, possibility of assassination of a public official, etc)
Private property is a different issue.
I think I'll stick with issuing a surplus .45 to every person who is going to school on a GI bill.
No, you simply have been RUDE and it DOESN’T help you turn anyone to your side being hysterical and absolutely refusing to accept anyone’s points as valid (”nahnahnah I can’t hear you” hands over your ears).
You can’t even accept my point that non-student adults should be allowed to carry. No, you keep attacking on 1 part of the whole thing. And erroneously expanding it to the whole nation.
When did I say I was “most libertarian” on FR? I said I was ONE of the most libertarian people you will find. And it is true. You can’t judge based on 1 infinitesimal subject (guns on campus).
I agree with the last statement generally (see, several times I have agreed with a point of yours or your comrades - can you ever muster that courtesy?), but there are limits to what responsibility you’ll let them handle. This could be a deadly 1.
It is a challenge. If it's always easy for you to conceal a weapon and you have it with you every minute of every day and it never gets in the way or becomes an issue then good for you. Your suggested methods work for a lot of situations. I have a carry purse myself, and a fanny pack, and they are good choices. Most people don't wear them in class, though, carry-size fanny packs are often a little bulky and unwieldy for me to want to have on all the time, but I'll endure them for some situations where I think my actual risk outweighs that hassle. You can't take it off and set it down and leave it like you would a backpack or a purse if you know what's in it. You can't set it down and go to the chalkboard, or to work on a group project in class. That's irresponsible.
If you think it's anti-gun to take the practical implications of carrying in this society very seriously and help people do it well, then you're not calling just me anti gun, but every self defense instructor I know, as well as every author who writes books about the subject of being armed and good self defense.
“But seriously, you don’t think it’s possible for over 21 year olds (teachers and students) that pass the qualifications to be able to carry at a school?”
Have you read any of my original posts on these threads? Or simply, you do not comprehend them. Go back and read it again.
Geezy wheezy. You guys ARE “hysterical”.
FIND IT. Give me a link. Others on this thread have brought up that issue, but ~I~ have not.
So you agree with the big city gun bans because of the "population density" and "emotionally charged atmosphere" of the big city?
I think you’re just not informed enough on the subject, that’s all. It’s very easy to conceal carry. I promise you I can get up, dance around, and so on, you’d never know with my IWB unless I lift my shirt up well above my waist.
If the *worse* thing that happens is someone else sees you having a gun, that’s really not that bad. I think it outweighs the cost of being a sitting duck, don’t you?
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