How to Shut Down the IRS(With The Fair Tax)

newsblaze.com ^ | By Congressman Jeff Miller

[RobFromGa]

Yes, repealing the 16th is part of the package.

False. A recommendation to do something that is not going to happen is not the same thing as repeal. Show me how 38 states are going to ratify an Amendment to the Constitution and make the beginning of the FairTax contingent on this repeal and then this argument can be waved away. Until that happens it is a very valid argument against the FairTax.

And there are many other problems with the bill.

You claim visibility of taxation as a big plus. (I don't agree, I think that sales taxes are much more difficult to track than something that is shown in one line every year on a tax return but that is another argument).

But in a related vein,

What do you think the very visible welfare payment (to every man, woman and child in America) from the FedGov in the form of a prebate every stinking month is going to do to the pysche of the average person. Will it make them feel more or less dependent on government?

[socialismisinsidious]

HOW? they won’t even know how much people make!

[socialismisinsidious]

Yes, repeal is part of the package, if the states don't ratify then the Fair Tax does not happen.

one line every year

There is the problem, it isn't one line! Withholding isn't one line, even the simplest 1040 isn't one line...compliance costs are billions of dollars per year, that wouldn't be so if taxes were as easy as "one line." Spouting "one line" with today's tax code=laughable.

Don't want the rebate for tax on food, health care cost b/c it does something strange to your fragile psyche then don't take it....unlike our wonderful income tax the rebate form is not obligatory.

[RobFromGa]

One way would be to pass an emergency income tax law. It will start as an Emergency measure when they find out that they are not collecting enough because too many transactions are going underground or switching to “for business use”. It would probably be implemented as a version of the Flat Tax, say 10% of everything over $100k.

Since there would be an Emergency, and people need their social security checks, and the government workers need their paychecks, this would be about the only politically possible way to make up the shortfall.

And make no mistake, there will be a fairly large reduction in the retail base caused by a 40-50% sales tax. This reduction in volume will trigger an even larger drop requiring even higher sales tax rates. It is a terrible negative feedback system.

Maybe, if you make less than this targeted amount you just have to file a postcard that says you are below the amount with no other details maybe, just to get the votes of the “less fortunate”. Employers will be the ones that have to enforce the reporting for all their “rich” employees.

The rich don’t need the money anyway. /s

This will be hunky-dory with most of the dependent electorate.

[RobFromGa]

if the states don't ratify then the Fair Tax does not happen.

Wrong, please link to the provision in the bill where you think this happens. It isn't there.

There is the problem, it isn't one line! Withholding isn't one line, even the simplest 1040 isn't one line

The amount of total tax you owe each year is certainly shown on ONE LINE. On the regular 1040, it is line #63.

Right below your total income tax for the year on line #63, there is a line #64 where it totals all your withholding for the year. And below that on line #65 there is a total of all the estimated tax payments that you made through the year.

When you subtract what you have already paid from your total tax bill, you get the Amount due. But your total tax bill for the entire year is shown on Line #63.

compliance costs are billions of dollars per year

As a percentage of taxes collected (in the trillion plus range), compliance costs are very small amount. Most things that corporate accountants do are not done just for tax purposes, but to measure the financial health of the company for investors. The same for corporate income taxes. very low percentage of taxes collected. Don't want the rebate for tax on food, health care cost b/c it does something strange to your fragile psyche then don't take it

You didn't answer the question-- do you think having every American nam, woman and chilf receive a monthly check from the government whose amount is up the legislators will make Americans feel more or less dependent on government?

[Man50D]

2.When women got the vote is the exact point this country started to go to hell.

You just opened another can of worms I'm not touching. ;o)

[mad_as_he$$]

I understand.

[Racer1]

Its not class envy, it knowing greed when I see it. No one employee of any corporation (unless you own it) is worth tens of millions of dollars. Its steeling from the stockholders. Yes a poor guy has given me a job (to the standards we are discussing here) and no a rich guy has not. This idea that we own all to the rich is rubbish. No I do not rub my hands all over with glee, I respect people who earn it no matter what there income is. By the way if your would have read what I posted you would have noticed that I said no loopholes. I meant that for everyone. Oh the socialist slide is caused mostly by the rich. How else do they rob the rest of us.

[socialismisinsidious]

Oh yeah, that line...the one that I couldn't get to until I answered all kinds of asinine, none of their freaking business, questions....Let's see their was schedule A and those 28 questions, and form 6251 and its 55 socialist questions, and form 8889 and its moronic questions, and form 8283 and its three parts and the additional dependents statement, and of course the worksheet for line 44 of the 1040 and the tax payments worksheet and the local tax deduction worksheet, the charitable contributions summary and the federal carryover worksheet (for my records of course)......I'm sorry there is nothing full of more BS than our income tax code. So don't give me crap about one stupid line. The amount of money and time it takes to get to your 'one line' is the real problem.

Corporations don't pay taxes. And again if a family doesn't want the rebate they don't have to take it. Families will feel less dependent on the government b/c they will know that they are getting their own money back...not hard to figure out that they paid taxes on food and they are getting that money back b/c making things exempt and loopholing just leads to the kind of mess, greasing of legislative paws that we have now.

[socialismisinsidious]

This idea that we own all to the rich is rubbish

This idea that the rich owe us is rubbish.

Oh the socialist slide is caused mostly by the rich.

What a joke that it. That's right the man is keeping you down. It is always someone else's fault! You sound like you are from DU. The rich man is robbing me..please.

The socialist slide is caused by those that put their hand out to the government...give me b/c I am a victim: boohoo, I need help paying medical bills, son's speech therapy, daughter's drug rehab, buying a house, paying for college etc...but you can bet that I have cable, cell phones, trips to latte heaven, new car (hey, I need those things).

May want to take a look at who pays taxes in this country...maybe the rich don't pay (b/c of loopholes etc) what you think they should, but the 'poor' aren't paying anything.

When the government takes from one people, via gunpoint, in order to give to another that is socialism....those people being held at gunpoint aren't poor.

Not sure what you standards are but your class envy is going to destroy small business in this country...but it's OK b/c they are nothing but a bunch of rich guys.

[Racer1]

Never said they did. Who do you think makes the laws that gives these handouts. Its not the poor. Its the fat cat congressmen and senators buying votes. You seem to want to forget all the other money that government hands out. Corporate bail outs, tax incentives, football stadiums just mention a few. I don’t remember saying I supported any of the programs that you mention. And there you go again with the class envy. I only see it like it is.

[socialismisinsidious]

Do you subscribe to Patriot Post? It is a free on line newsletter: http://patriotpost.us/subscribe/

Below is from Friday, April 20,2007 Patriot Post. I read it today and thought of our discussion:

Regarding the redistribution of your income
Chances are, half the people you see today depend on you for at least part of their livelihood. More than 52 percent of Americans now rely on the federal government (your pocketbook), either directly or indirectly, for some or all of their income. While 20 percent of the population hold federal jobs or are employed in other positions connected to the government, another 20 percent receive a government pension or Social Security. In addition, 19 million Americans are on the public dole for food stamps, five million receive education grants and two million hang their hat courtesy of subsidized housing.

Overall, this percentage is up three points from seven years ago, is almost double the percentage of 1950, and is well on its way to reaching the 55-percent level that President Reagan successfully began tackling in 1980. What’s more, unless big change occurs, by 2040 fully 60 percent of Americans could be holding out their hands to Uncle Sam.

Yet, that which government gives to the people it must first take from the people. Consider that the top ten percent of income earners—those earning $100,000 or more per year—pay 70 percent of all federal taxes. Contrasted with this, nearly 45 million Americans pay a grand total of zero taxes, relying instead on the labor of others. Governing this fiscal fiasco is a tax code seven times longer than the Bible. Apparently, Washington requires more words to subsidize its waste than the Almighty needed to prepare mankind for eternity.

As the road to hell is paved with good intentions, the specter of socialism is shrouded in federal bureaucracy. Without drastic change, American entrepreneurship will be visible only through a rearview mirror.

end copy

[navyguy]

You throw a lot of numbers out with almost no supporting documentation.

Every man is entitled to his opinion. Now I knpow yours.

[RobFromGa]

What number would you like to question first?

[EternalVigilance]

FairTax BUMP!

[navyguy]

All of them. You are the one making the argument. Start citing legit sources. You can start at the beginning.

[unixfox]

Seems like every tax season someone comes out screaming we need reform, and every tax season nothing ever happens.

The only way REAL reform is gonna happen is for every American to burn their tax returns on April 15th and tell the IRS to go eff themselves.

[RobFromGa]

Sorry, not going to play that game, I give my basic reasoning for every single number, and there is tons of backup and debate on every single number on the liked threads plus the dozens of other threads on the subject.

If you want to question a specific number and start at the beginning if you want, I will address your questions one at a time.

The basic idea is that there cannot be a FREE LUNCH, so there cannot be an immediate rise in purchasing power. Since workers pay is expected to go up, this means that of course prices will also go up. But not everyone is a worker. And that plus the fact that goverment needs to pay the 29.87% tax on every non-education related expenditure means that they haven’t calculated the required income correctly. The parity level of government tax income will need to be in excess of 20% higher than right now to stay even.

And the idea to put every man, woman and child on the Federal dole through the prebate will just foster an increase in the already too-high level of dependency on government handouts. You do recognize that the elected Representatives will still be able to monkey with the prebate to achieve their social engineering, and to buy votes from unproductive citizens at the expense of the productive, don’t you?

Or do you think the FairTax will remove the politics from politics?

[cicada]

You will never get rid of politics, but I think the FairTax would give us a ready way to judge how our representatives are doing their job, whether taxes are going up or down.

I wonder about how the transition from one to the other would take place. Would all stored inventory be considered used (already taxed)? I see a rough transition as goods cost more before the effect of lower labor rates kicks in.

I also note that services are subject to the NRST. If I repair someone’s computer or fix their car and get compensated for it, am I supposed to charge the tax?

I like the idea of getting rid of the gov’t wanting to know where all my money comes from, but as each one of is our own little business, does that not open us up to gov’t intrusion as we provide any goods or services to anyone else? I guess I could give it away for free and not be taxed.

Do divorced parents get half of the prebate for each child? There must be many unintended consequences that those lawyers in DC would need to foresee or leave up to the courts.

As to the artist selling a painting on consignment, he or the consignee would have to submit the tax, then split the remainder some way. Once it is sold one time though, it would be tax exempt thereafter. It would be easy to game the system by selling it at a low price and sharing the profits of a later sale for more, but I guess that could be made illegal. More inspectors!

My support for the NRST is based more on the morality, or lack thereof, of a tax on my income at the federal level. A state income tax doesn’t bother me as much.

One last question; The 16th amendment repealed the apportionment of taxes by population and made it by income. Since taxes would now be by spending, would there not still need to be an amendment?