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To: GodGunsGuts
My single most powerful argument for ID is that there is intelligence and design in the universe.

There is no obvious cause and effect relationship. What you are really saying is that you don't know of a scientific explanation for either our intelligence or perceived design in nature, so you are reaching way out and pulling down a supernatural explanation. Does the designer custom make each snowflake? Or is that a natural phenomenon?


BTW, ID does not attempt to explain who the designer is, they only seek to use the scientific method to detect design in nature. In that sense, their program is rather modest, in that they leave the identification of the designer for other disciplines (which, given our current understanding, is where you leave the realm of science and enter the field of metaphysical cosmology, religion, etc).

I don't believe this for a moment. The entire focus of the ID movement is pushing a Christian Deity. Read any of the major ID documents, or follow the threads here on FR. It won't be long before you see Biblical quotations or other scripture/revelation brought into the argument. It generally takes the form, "I don't know how it occurred, so God did it! Whoops, strike that--the designer did it. I'll get back to you with the details."

I have asked on numerous occasions how many IDers there are, and I have asked for some justification for whatever answer may be provided. I have never received an answer to my question. I believe that is because to IDers the answer is clear--the Christian God is the creator, and the justification is the Bible. But--its against the guild rules to admit that, so I receive no answer at all, or only a vague, "We'll get back to you on that." Your answer, "they leave the identification of the designer for other disciplines" is typical.

141 posted on 05/13/2007 9:35:16 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman
==There is no obvious cause and effect relationship. What you are really saying is that you don’t know of a scientific explanation for either our intelligence or perceived design in nature, so you are reaching way out and pulling down a supernatural explanation.

Our intelligence proves there is intelligence in the universe. We also design things. Therefore, there is design in the universe. That’s my starting point. Since the dawn of recorded history, we have only observed intelligence coming from intelligence, and design coming from designers. And then there is the will. There is nothing in the chemistry of my body that suggests I should be able to type this message at will. I think it and my fingers start typing the way I want them too and when I want them too. It certainly does not originate from the chemicals that constitute my body. Please explain where this impulse comes from. It’s clearly an epiphenomenon that requires a different kind of explanation than the straitjackets of scientific naturalism can provide. And let’s suppose our consciousness and will are indeed an epiphenomenon, do you think the scientific method should be amended to be able to investigate it? Or would you prefer that such a phenomena forever remain a mystery?

==The entire focus of the ID movement is pushing a Christian Deity.

Complete BS. The ID movement consists of agnostics, deists, and theists of all stripes. Creationists can utilize the findings of ID, but ID cannot utilize creationism because it is not a theological enterprise. In the same way, Creationists can utilize the finding of evolutionists, but evolutionists cannot utilize Creationism. In each case, they are two separate projects.

142 posted on 05/13/2007 10:19:41 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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