Toyota skids in reliability rankings

CNNMoney.com ^ | 10/16/2007 | Peter Valdes-Dapena

[eraser2005]

NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.

Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.

But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.

[McGruff]

I’ve always been suspect of Consumer Reports’s vehicle ratings. From what I’v see they rely on consumer’s feedback on cars not any scientific evidence.

[Drew68]

I had a mid 1970s Toyota SR-5 pickup. Despite the fact that I maintained it very poorly, it just refused to quit. It was an eyesore but one of the most dependable cars I ever owned. I told myself I''d drive it until the whells fell off. I gave up on that truck dying and wound up giving it away to a friend of mine who needed a running vehicle.

My 1990 Ford Ranger is the same way. It just keeps on getting me where I need to go with complete reliability.

[taildragger]

Also some good news for domestics... They now rate 93% of all Ford/Lincoln/Mercury models as average or better (and that is WITH statistical data to back them up)

Eraser,

Not only is Ford/Lincoln/Mercury in a dead heat in terms of reliability, darn near every they are building is 5 Star in crash testing, including the Mustang Convertible in roll-overs. Their weak link is fuel economy and they are addressing that.

The Ford and GM basing on the freep is getting so old....

Remember the Movie Apollo 13, and the line "Failure is not an Option"? Failure is not an option for Allan Mulally and by extension Ford. Anyone who bets against him, would still place a bet on Sonny Liston vs. some newcomer, this guy, what's his name, Muhammad Ali....

[Alberta's Child]

It wasn't all that long ago that I was predicting a steep decline in Toyota's reliability, and in fact I suggested it might be time to sell any Toyota stock one might have in his/her portfolio.

This was based on one single indicator that I've been using to assess the future performance of an auto company's stock, and it hasn't failed me yet. Anyone who wants my "secret" (admittedly it will seem half-cocked at first) can Freep-mail me.

[llevrok]

Still, the worst Toyota is better than the best Chrysler...

[llevrok]

Still, the worst Toyota is better than the best Chrysler...

[Alberta's Child]

I wasn't thrilled with the 4Runner, either. It may have excelled in a lot of ways, but I had two basic complaints about it:

1. It seemed too heavy for the powertrain (at the time, I believe the largest engine offered on it was a small V-6).

2. I never liked the idea of building an SUV on a pickup truck chassis. Not enough leg room inside (especially in the back seat).

[Kirkwood]

“he says that the Camry’s V-6 is the worst engine in Toyota’s line up”

Problems arose only when they weren’t serviced on schedule. If the oil and filter was changed on schedule, there was no problem. Toyota extended the warranty on these engines anyway.

[calex59]

I had a mid 1970s Toyota SR-5 pickup. Despite the fact that I maintained it very poorly, it just refused to quit. It was an eyesore but one of the most dependable cars I ever owned. I told myself I''d drive it until the whells fell off. I gave up on that truck dying and wound up giving it away to a friend of mine who needed a running vehicle. My 1990 Ford Ranger is the same way. It just keeps on getting me where I need to go with complete reliability.

Yep, I had a 1982 SR-5 and it ran and ran, I finally gave it away to my step son. I now have a 1994 Ford Ranger 4 wheel drive that has 166,000 miles on it and all I ever replaced were the spark plugs and a clutch at 125,000 miles. I think my daughter was the reason the clutch failed! It just keeps on running.

[TheThinker]

The worst cars I ever owned were early 90’s Fords. I bought a Toyota Corolla and the only thing that ever went wrong with that was a pulley. Now I drive a Honda and have no problems at about 200k.

[madvlad]

I have a 96 Honda Civic w/ 64K mi. The only problems I ever have
are those they find when I take it to Midas for oil changes.

Those problems magically disappear when I take it elsewhere.

MV

[TheBattman]

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability

Funny... Scion is Toyota, Acura is Honday... thus leaving Subaru the only "other" in the list.

[Spktyr]

Eh... CR does have some points - but using them to advise you on a capital purchase like a car, boat, or similar item is a mistake.

Remember, this is the same publication that actually *liked* and *recommended* the first generation Hyundai Excel, one of the worst cars ever sold in the US.

That said, I’m not really surprised on the two Toyota models they panned. The Toyota car V6 has been having oil gelling problems of late - but the same problem has been sporadically affecting all makers of late, including Mercedes, Ford, Chrysler and GM. It isn’t a very well understood phenomenon, and it’s been surprising some of the world’s best powertrain engineers.

The Toyota truck V8 problem was not as widespread as eraser would have us believe, but it certainly is a worthwhile thing to note on a survey; Toyota’s American supplier wasn’t paying attention and shipped a lot of defective cams to Toyota. The problem is a flaw in the casting for the camshaft. At this point, only about 20 trucks have had an actual failure related to this, but to their credit Toyota will be replacing the engine for free in case of camshaft failure.

Hey, Eraser, when’s Ford going to be replacing those defective 4.6s?

[Spktyr]

Subarus, amusingly enough, is building Toyota Camries under contract from Toyota in their IN plant.

[Spktyr]

And even Toyota’s “worst” engine is better than some other makes’ “best” engines in terms of reliability. Ford, I’m looking at you....

[pogo101]

I’ve got the best of two worlds: a reliable Honda Accord, built in Ohio!

[Spktyr]

Until recently, most SUVs were built on pickup frames. It adds great strength and allows them to go offroad and not break. (Note that the FJ Cruiser, a Toyota unibody, is having body cracking problems when used offroad.)

That said, lack of legroom is not a function of whether it’s unibody or body-on-frame but of interior design. Case in point is my 90 Nissan Pathfinder - tons of room in the front; my 7’ tall basketball player friend fit inside just fine. Rear legroom is OK - if the front seaters aren’t basketball players and don’t have the seat back all the way. They did fix that later with the next generation of Pathfinder and XTerra.

[gracesdad]

“Some rather damning admissions in here... that CR admits they gave Toyotas average or better ratings without any statistical data to back up their predictions....”

This was always epxlained to readers. Not a secret.

[Pining_4_TX]

My husband recently bought a 2007 Ford 500. He loves it. He says it is his favorite car of all the ones he has owned.

[Ben Hecks]

I think all automotive ratings and evaluations have to be taken with a grain of salt. Some years ago, many automotive writers were critical of Ford (and GM) for building V-6 engines using a 90 degree configuration instead of a 60 degree layout which is inherently better balanced. Ford and GM ramped up their V-6 engine production by designing them so they could be built on V-8 tooling lines.

All of the V-6 engines currently used by Ford in their passenger cars (3.0/3.5/4.0) are 60 degree designs. The Audi V-6, which draws rave reviews, happens to have a 90 degree layout.