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Big Giuliani problem: Who cares about NY City?
John Seiler ^ | October 22, 2007 | John Seiler

Posted on 10/22/2007 11:09:26 AM PDT by freedomdefender

Rudi Giuliani’s campaign depends to a great extent on his clean-up of crime in NY City in the 1990s. It allows him to cover up a multitude of his non-conservative policies. Consider this exchange from yesterday’s GOP debate:

Fred Thompson: Mayor Giuliani believes in federal funding for abortion. He believes in sanctuary cities. He’s for gun control. He supported Mario Cuomo, a liberal Democrat, against a Republican who was running for governor; then opposed the governor’s tax cuts when he was there.

Rudi: I had the most legal city in the country. And I took the crime capital of America and I turned it into the safest large city in the country. The senator has never had executive responsibility. He’s never had the weight of people’s safety and security on his shoulders.

Well, whatever Rudi did in NY City, across the country crime also fell sharply in the 1990s:

According to new research by a University of California, Berkeley, law professor, the crime rate dropped dramatically during the 1990s, falling 40 percent in cities and states across the country and in all major crime categories from homicides to auto thefts, producing the longest and deepest crime decline in the United States since World War II.

And besides, since when is local crime a federal responsibility? We need to get rid of all federal involvement in local police matters, including cutting off all funding using U.S. taxpayers’ money.

Finally, most Americans just don’t like NY City. They hate the Yankees baseball team. They don’t like the pushy attitude of New Yorkers. And they don’t like paying for the vast federal subsidies that go to the city.

Maybe Rudi can be Hillary’s running mate.


TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: giuliani; giulianitruthfile; nyc
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1 posted on 10/22/2007 11:09:28 AM PDT by freedomdefender
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To: freedomdefender

I won[t be voting for Guiliani under any circumstances I can foresee.

That said, what he did in New York City was amazing, given the circumstances, as mayor.

I visited NYC routinely before Guiliani was mayor, and have done so twice since. The difference can’t be denied by anyone objective.


2 posted on 10/22/2007 11:13:38 AM PDT by Badeye ('Ron Paul joined 88 Democrats.....")
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To: freedomdefender
Well, whatever Rudi did in NY City, across the country crime also fell sharply in the 1990s:

And, the crime rate began dropping in New York in the early 1990s before he took office.

3 posted on 10/22/2007 11:15:29 AM PDT by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: freedomdefender

...and there you have it.
I’ve been saying this from the begining. The horror of the 9/11 attacks were barely enough to bring us together for the fight. If they had attacked another, more beloved city, the American people wouldn’t be losing their nerve. It’s a harsh observation but I think it is true. I guess I’m not alone.


4 posted on 10/22/2007 11:16:25 AM PDT by Uriah_lost ("I don't apologize for the United States of America," -Fred D Thompson)
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To: freedomdefender

Or, as we like to say down here: “We don’t care you y’all do it in the North.”


5 posted on 10/22/2007 11:16:38 AM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: If his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: freedomdefender
Well, whatever Rudi did in NY City, across the country crime also fell sharply in the 1990s

It's also worth noticing that when Rooty Toot talks about the abortion rate dropping in NYC and the adoption rate going up, NYC was following national trends in both cases.

Adoption rates are somewhat difficult to pin down; but nationwide abortion rates during the 1990s dropped nearly 25%, well ABOVE the 17% that Rooty is claiming.

6 posted on 10/22/2007 11:17:30 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Badeye

I don’t know about Rudy, but Thompson puts me to sleep. He is one big bore. By the way, did you know that Thompson backed the the Trail Lawyers/Tort lobby right down the line to defeat Tort Reform on every effort during his time in the Senate. He was a trial lawyer before he was elected to the Senate and returned to that profession after he left to include defending Pro Choice. I am beginning to believe Huckabee may offer the best alternative.


7 posted on 10/22/2007 11:19:38 AM PDT by Old Retired Army Guy (tHE)
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

Huckabee has zero chance of gaining the nomination. Thats the reality of the situation. I like him, and Hunter, but they’ve both had countless opportunities, and so far haven’t been able to take advantage of them.

Damn shame, but it is what it is.


8 posted on 10/22/2007 11:22:18 AM PDT by Badeye ('Ron Paul joined 88 Democrats.....")
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To: Ol' Sparky

Crime rates started dropping nationwide as more and more areas went to mandatory sentencing and eliminating parole. When the criminals are in prison, crime rates drop.


9 posted on 10/22/2007 11:23:05 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Badeye

Re that “under any circumstances I can foresee”...
What are you going to do if the National Committee
selects Rudy as the GOP candidate? Better not
close your mind totally. I face the same quandry
with Rhino McCain and/or Far-rightist Paul.
THEN...how would a Romney/Giuliani
or a Thompson/Giuliani ticket grab you?


10 posted on 10/22/2007 11:24:00 AM PDT by Grendel9
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To: freedomdefender

Was Giuliani in New York City?


11 posted on 10/22/2007 11:24:05 AM PDT by TommyDale (Never forget the Republicans who voted for illegal immigrant amnesty in 2007!)
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

Not me man,
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1914687/posts


12 posted on 10/22/2007 11:24:53 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time .)
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To: Badeye

You’re right, as much as I would like to see someone like Hunter or Huckabee win the nomination, it’s looking like the only candidates who have a chance are Rooty, Romney and Thompson. (However, at this time four years ago, Dean was seen as a foregone conclusion.)


13 posted on 10/22/2007 11:25:43 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Grendel9

I’ll write my own name in.

Sorry, just as I refused to support the GOP in 2006 to thwart Nancy Pelosi, I won’t vote for Guiliani to ‘thwart’ Hillary Clinton.

My decision matrix is very simple when it comes to Presidents.

Taxation, USSC nominations, Second Amendment, National Defense. IN no particular order, btw.

Guiliani fails using this ‘matrix’ just as Clinton does.

If the GOP is that stupid, they’ve left me, not the other way around. Reminds me of Ronald Reagan’s reason for leaving the Democratic Party.


14 posted on 10/22/2007 11:28:33 AM PDT by Badeye ('Ron Paul joined 88 Democrats.....")
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To: Uriah_lost

Rest assured you are not alone in your assessment. However, sadly New York seems to have captured the American imagination, possibly more through Hollywood movies than through 9-11, and may very well give us both the Democratic and Republican nominees.


15 posted on 10/22/2007 11:30:37 AM PDT by Muleteam1
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To: Old Retired Army Guy
...He is one big bore.

well that's good enough for me...I'll take a bore. That way he won't "inspire" legislation and worry about "legacy" building.

Rudy may run as a Republican. He can just do it without me.

.....If Hillary wins, I'm good with that. I'll make money like I did with the "Blow job isn't sex" Clinton. Short the medical and pharmaceutical stocks. Then when they bottom out buy all of them back and hold them.

Clinton gave us the House, most of the state legislatures, and brought about the rise of the conservatives. He couldn't save welfare, signed off on NAFTA and basically spent his time yacking about how evil Republicans are while stuffing his pockets with money and zipping his pants up when Hillary walked into the White House.

I'd rather have an enemy in front of me with known tendencies than a RINO at my side with his arm around my neck and a pistol in my ribs.

16 posted on 10/22/2007 11:30:49 AM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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To: Grendel9; Badeye

No Rudy, No way, at all.

If I have to, I will vote third-party.

If the GOP picks Rudy, they have walked away from me, I did not walk away from them.


17 posted on 10/22/2007 11:31:04 AM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: freedomdefender

Some people will NEVER get it. Rudy warts and all took on the liberal establishment in NYC, politicians, union mobs, teachers, the whole lot of them.

And he beat them so badly every which way just by employing common sense they will never, ever forgive him.

They hate him more than the social conservatives here. And they have real reasons even more to take it personally.

He just about destroyed them completely in NYC.


18 posted on 10/22/2007 11:31:26 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: wagglebee

And when it comes to tort reform, Thompson is totally States Rights. Check this out from an email I received...

“Historically, tort laws have been matters for decision by the states. Not all states deal with such matters in the same way, and problems that exist in some states may not be present in others. What is a problem in New York may not be a problem in New Mexico, and the approaches to problem solving may be different in Tallahassee than in Topeka.

Conservatives have traditionally respected the rights of the states to identify and address their own problems. They have typically opposed one-size fits all solutions dictated by Congress, believing that people who have their feet on the ground in their communities are in a better position to deal with their problems than bureaucrats who are far from the scene in Washington, DC.”

Put this against the flopping of Mitt and McCain, the liberalism of Rudy, the immigration stance of Huckabee, I’ll take Thompson.


19 posted on 10/22/2007 11:31:26 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time .)
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

Thompson put the wood to the roooooty last night.For him being boring he sure got my attention.


20 posted on 10/22/2007 11:31:47 AM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Defeat liberalism, its the right thing to do for America.)
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To: freedomdefender

I like the Yankees team, but I hate that they are a bought team.

I’m a great fan of in-house development of players. It’s what baseball used to be about.


21 posted on 10/22/2007 11:32:22 AM PDT by xzins (If you will just agree to the murdering of your children, we can win the presidency)
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To: Badeye

Bump


22 posted on 10/22/2007 11:32:39 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Pray for, and support our troops(heroes) !! And vote out the RINO's!!)
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To: wagglebee

‘You’re right, as much as I would like to see someone like Hunter or Huckabee win the nomination, it’s looking like the only candidates who have a chance are Rooty, Romney and Thompson. (However, at this time four years ago, Dean was seen as a foregone conclusion.)’

Yep.

I can survive any of those running right now, right or left, to be honest. Made it through Jimmy Carter, made it through Bill Clinton....I’ll ‘make it through’ whoever gets the win this time around as well.

I could grit my teeth and vote for Romney, I could end up actively supporting Thompson.

But I can’t vote for Guiliani. Aside from the previous post detailing specifics...Rudy has another problem that really worries me.

When he gets bored (often) his personal life becomes very very messy, just like Bill Clinton’s. And just liek Bill Clinton, he’s very arrogant about it.

We can’t afford another couple of years right now along the lines of 1997 and 1998.


23 posted on 10/22/2007 11:32:52 AM PDT by Badeye ('Ron Paul joined 88 Democrats.....")
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To: netmilsmom

I’ll take Fred too. But if it came down to Hillary and Rudy, I will pull the lever for the latter and work for the future of the country.


24 posted on 10/22/2007 11:33:30 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: freedomdefender
the crime rate dropped dramatically during the 1990s

Midnight basketball

25 posted on 10/22/2007 11:37:20 AM PDT by Sgt_Schultze
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To: wagglebee
Giuliani was in office during the biggest economic boom in our lifetimes. For some unknown reason (/s),,,,he never mentions that when he talks about the drop in crime.

When the national economy booms--crime rates normally fall (as they did nationally),,,,as unemployment drops. Also, a booming economy increases tax revenue--allowing flexibility tax cuts.

Giuliani does deserve SOME credit for the drop in crime and cutting some taxes,,,,but his repeated efforts to take complete credit for both is just plain disingenuous and 'not the whole story'.

His 'waving of his own flag' without telling the 'whole story' (or putting his actions in some perspective) is getting somewhat tiresome.

26 posted on 10/22/2007 11:37:38 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: romanesq

Grassroots are building against Rudy, as least here in MI.
You would not believe how many people I speak to that know and support Thompson.

I think, no matter how much the MSM wants him, Rudy is a moot point.


27 posted on 10/22/2007 11:37:41 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time .)
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

In the same way every Democrat candidate
has pimples, so does each of the Republicans.
Let’a face it, we’re voting for human beings.
When the chips are down, the real question
will be WHO is going to be the best C-I-C
for the nation? Who will nominate the best
talent for each position in his Cabinet?

I’ve been through decades of national elections
and I’ve noticed that about every 20 years the
man on the street begins to think about the chaos
that ensaues in divvying up the Two Houses and
the Presidency. He atarts mulling over the
positives in a clean sweep for only one party.
Our great danger in this coming election is
going to eminate from illegals getting inside
the voting booths.
between the Dems and Reps.


28 posted on 10/22/2007 11:39:00 AM PDT by Grendel9
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To: netmilsmom
Grassroots are building against Rudy, as least here in MI.

I certainly hope you are right. Rudy would be an absolute disaster for the Republican Party.

29 posted on 10/22/2007 11:40:20 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: Badeye
Taxation, USSC nominations, Second Amendment, National Defense. IN no particular order, btw.

Good matrix. I use it as well. :>)

30 posted on 10/22/2007 11:40:30 AM PDT by beltfed308 (Rudy: When you absolutely,positively need a liberal for President.)
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To: imahawk

The only “take away” from last nights debate was Mc Cain’s remarks about Woodstock and Hillary.


31 posted on 10/22/2007 11:40:43 AM PDT by Old Retired Army Guy (tHE)
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To: Muleteam1
may very well give us both the Democratic and Republican nominees.

The irony is that if Rooty is nominated, it will be the first time in American history that a major political party has nominated a candidate for president who they did not believe would be able to carry his home state. And I am unaware of anyone ever winning the presidential election without carrying their home state.

32 posted on 10/22/2007 11:40:44 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: freedomdefender
they don’t like paying for the vast federal subsidies that go to the city.

If you have proof that NYC takes in more from Washington than it pays in, I'd like to see it.

33 posted on 10/22/2007 11:40:55 AM PDT by NativeNewYorker (Freepin' Jew Boy)
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To: beltfed308

Great minds and all that stuff.


34 posted on 10/22/2007 11:42:16 AM PDT by Badeye ('Ron Paul joined 88 Democrats.....")
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To: freedomdefender

RG thinks the USA should be a mirror of NYC. Romney thinks the USA should be a mirror of MA. The USA is not some monolith that should be come some clone of a liberal northeastern state.


35 posted on 10/22/2007 11:42:40 AM PDT by Fred (I am sick and tired of flip flopping politicians and I am not going to take it anymore...)
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To: netmilsmom

The media is trying to run down Thompson for the same reason they are trying to prop up Rooty. They are terrified of Fred and totally confident of victory with Rooty.


36 posted on 10/22/2007 11:42:42 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Sgt_Schultze
[Midnight basketball]

Crack Cocaine.

37 posted on 10/22/2007 11:43:34 AM PDT by VxH (One if by Land, Two if by Sea, and Three if by Wire Transfer)
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To: romanesq
Rudy warts and all took on the liberal establishment in NYC

Rudy was part of the liberal establishment in NYC, which is, after all, most of the city. He was even supported by the Liberal party. Rudy was not that unusual. I've known many liberal prosecutors who are very authoritarian and "tough on crime". They are also tough on ctizens Constitutional rights.

38 posted on 10/22/2007 11:43:40 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

“Thompson puts me to sleep. He is one big bore” Thank you!!! People need to stop deluding themselves by saying he’s won the debates and is the messiah. If he’s the candidate, the GOP loses to Clinton and/or Obama (maybe not John Edwards). Not only is he imperfect (he also helped an abortion org and his excuse was BS last night and Colmes ate him up on it after the debate), he’s simply BORING and won’t capture ADD America’s attention. It’s going to have to be Rudy or Mitt, for better or worse, b/c Fred is a flop and Duncan just isn’t getting his much deserved attention.


39 posted on 10/22/2007 11:48:10 AM PDT by enough_idiocy (www.daypo.net/test-iraq-war.html)
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

One of the best lines I’ve heard in years.


40 posted on 10/22/2007 11:48:52 AM PDT by enough_idiocy (www.daypo.net/test-iraq-war.html)
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To: stockstrader

Yep, Rooty will not acknowledge that, more than any city in America, NYC benefitted from the stock market gains of the late 1990s. A lot of people in NYC were making more money back then than anyone ever dreamed possible and they were pumping billions back into the city’s economy.

However, Rooty had NOTHING to do with nationwide economic growth. (Neither do the Clintons, but they have a more plausible claim to it than Rooty.)


41 posted on 10/22/2007 11:49:01 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Prokopton
The liberal party was a tiny local clique that inherited a ballot line. It had nothing to do with being "liberal".

If you're going to bash Rudy, which is certainly fine, do so without exposing how little you know about NY politics.

42 posted on 10/22/2007 11:49:40 AM PDT by NativeNewYorker (Freepin' Jew Boy)
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To: enough_idiocy

The more I listen to the devisive rhetoric about the Republican nominess, the more I am agreeing with Rush that as of now, Hillary has an 80% chance of being the next President. I am a Reaganite and with him I was excited. This time around, all I can do is “yawn” and I guess if that kind of attitude is prevalant amongst Reaganites, Hillary and her machine wins.


43 posted on 10/22/2007 11:54:30 AM PDT by Old Retired Army Guy (tHE)
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To: Prokopton
I've known many liberal prosecutors who are very authoritarian and "tough on crime". They are also tough on citizens Constitutional rights.

BINGO!! If for reason we need an authoritarian, 'pit bull', bully as our President,,,,

I want that 'bully' to be a conservative,,,,not a LIBERAL!!!

44 posted on 10/22/2007 11:56:28 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: Grendel9

The biggest problem the Repub Party faces in 2008 is nicely examplified by the 2008 Repub Presidential contenders. Though the candidates are well into their running for the nomination, the Repub base is still luke warm about the Repub big names and so the fire and enthusiam of the Dem Base just is not present in the Repub Base.

While the Dem Base is at full howl in anticipation of 2008, as well as the next full moon, the Repub Base is as much in anticipation of what’s on TV election night, if not more, as the candidates.

On the Dem side, about every candidate would idealogically welcome Chavez (foreign policy), Mugabe (economic policy) and Putin (social policy) into their Administration, were it possible.

On the Repub side, Ron Paul is the only candidate in the spotlight that stands out. Mostly due to his bipolar positions of conservative economic policies and far out, to the moon and beyond, international stands that are too liberal for any but the most hard core left of the Dem Moon Howler base.

Hunter is clearly the best of the Repub candidates, but the USA political process seems well suited to weeding out the most qualified candidates.


45 posted on 10/22/2007 11:57:22 AM PDT by OldArmy52 (Bush's Legacy: 100 million new Dem voters in next 20 yrs via the 2007 Amnesty Act.)
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To: Badeye

>> Taxation, USSC nominations, Second Amendment, National Defense. IN no particular order, btw.

Nice matrix.

Taxation: Giuliani > Clinton
USSC nominations: Giuliani > Clinton
Second Amendment: Giuliani >= Clinton
National Defense: Giuliani >> Clinton

Not enough to win your vote?


46 posted on 10/22/2007 11:57:43 AM PDT by bluejay
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To: freedomdefender
NYC is overrun with illegal aliens that are having their needs met by the other taxpayers in NY state.

NYC is a hot bed of the Gay movement blessed by every politician in that city.

It is sodom, I do not want that to be the condition of the country after 08, so no to Rudy and not to any NY democrat that runs.

47 posted on 10/22/2007 11:59:10 AM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: freedomdefender

But the author does make a good point of NYC not being nearest and dearest to Joe & Mary Average Citizen’s hearts.

And NYC voting records do not show that 9/11 had any longer term impact.


48 posted on 10/22/2007 11:59:47 AM PDT by OldArmy52 (Bush's Legacy: 100 million new Dem voters in next 20 yrs via the 2007 Amnesty Act.)
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To: Prokopton

Your illustration is valid but your claim that Rudy “was part of the liberal establishment in NYC” is completely wrong.

You obviously were not in NYC during those wars. And it was all out war to stop Rudy from taking down the liberal/socialist machine.

One example is that there were literally ONE MILLION people on welfare when he took office. It’s a small fraction of that after he changed the policies.

Look if you want to oppose the guy on abortion or guns, fine, but don’t make things up that you are so blatantly incorrect about that the illustration you use is to compare him to other “liberal” prosecutors.

The record is not that difficult to know especially if you did which many of us saw and enjoyed see happen first hand. But if you’ve not experienced it, clearly it’s easy to understand why you wouldn’t value the denigration of the liberals and socialists in NYC.

But we do.


49 posted on 10/22/2007 12:00:00 PM PDT by romanesq
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To: ears_to_hear
It is sodom, I do not want that to be the condition of the country...

Like the bigoted NY liberal who thinks every capital C Christian wants to take us back to the Middle Ages, your prejudices diminish your cause.

50 posted on 10/22/2007 12:03:16 PM PDT by NativeNewYorker (Freepin' Jew Boy)
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