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Abortion isn't a religious issue (And it should not be a political issue says the author)
LA Times ^ | 4 November 2007 | Garry Wills

Posted on 11/04/2007 4:58:54 AM PST by shrinkermd

Evangelicals are adamant, but religion really has nothing to say about the issue

What makes opposition to abortion the issue it is for each of the GOP presidential candidates is the fact that it is the ultimate "wedge issue" -- it is nonnegotiable. The right-to-life people hold that it is as strong a point of religion as any can be. It is religious because the Sixth Commandment (or the Fifth by Catholic count) says, "Thou shalt not kill." For evangelical Christians, in general, abortion is murder. That is why what others think, what polls say, what looks practical does not matter for them. One must oppose murder, however much rancor or controversy may ensue.

But is abortion murder? Most people think not. Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.

About 10% of evangelicals, according to polls, allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest. But the circumstances of conception should not change the nature of the thing conceived. If it is a human person, killing it is punishing it for something it had nothing to do with. We do not kill people because they had a criminal parent.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abortion; garrywills; moralabsolutes; politics; prolife; religion
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To: shrinkermd
The Left evades the real issue: is human life sacred? If it is, abortion matters. If it isn't, it doesn't matter what you think of abortion.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

51 posted on 11/04/2007 7:01:53 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd
Garry Wills is always distorted by his personal issues with the Catholic Church. He is a twisted guy and can't be followed with any confidence of arriving at a sane destination. Abortion is wrong not because of the 6th Commandment but because it violates natural law. Any honest person knows in his/her heart that abortion is wrong, even if he never heard of the Bible or Moses or Cristianity. It can only be rendered acceptable by an energetic act of self-deception.
52 posted on 11/04/2007 7:02:24 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: ari-freedom
The fact there is an exception for some abortions, does not confer legitimacy on abortion. One can accept the need for abortion to save the life of the mother and still remain pro-life. The Left does not care either about the life of the unborn child or the mother.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

53 posted on 11/04/2007 7:04:45 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd

Because folks are weak when it comes to holding women to account. Don’t women get less punishment than men for killing born persons? Also, the victims of abortion are much less visible than post-birth victims of non-abort murder. There’s no chalk outline.

Freegards


54 posted on 11/04/2007 7:06:15 AM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Hornitos
If the fetus is not special, why have human rights? If Man is just another type of animal, why the concern with his dignity? The Left talks of dignity but in reality it regards Man as just another type of beast, albeit with speech and some particular powers of reason.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

55 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:12 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: shrinkermd

Well, the headline should be correct, but it’s not.

After all, to ignore clear scientific/biological data, and instead propose that the fetus only becomes a person at some arbitrarily chosen stage in its development — and even then, only if the mother desires to give birth — is to engage in some sort of mysticism, to be sure.


56 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:20 AM PST by william clark (DH4WH08 - Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: shrinkermd

IT'S A BIRD, IT'S A PLANE, IT'S A BABY


57 posted on 11/04/2007 7:09:42 AM PST by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory.")
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To: shrinkermd
I thought to try to wade through the article. I gave up when I got to this:

The universal mandate to preserve "human life" makes no sense. My hair is human life -- it is not canine hair, and it is living. It grows. When it grows too long, I have it cut. Is that aborting human life?

I was worried if I read much more, I would begin tearing my own hair out.

58 posted on 11/04/2007 7:10:24 AM PST by don-o (Do the RIGHT thing. Become a monthly donor. End Freepathons forever)
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To: N3WBI3
In my Latin/English dictionary, "fetus" means offspring. That should clear it up for the lib baby killers, if they were smart enough to learn the real, centuries old meaning of the word.
59 posted on 11/04/2007 7:12:55 AM PST by Paulus Invictus
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To: Sherman Logan
I don't see that as inconsistent. The very sacredness of Man, which the Left rejects, demands the death penalty against those violate that sacred status by wantonly taking a human life. To take the life of the murderer is to affirm just how special Man is in the eyes of God and his fellow human beings. That too is part of the traditional thinking about the difference between humanity and the rest of creation, because Man was created with a Divine Essence lacking in the beasts. As it was, he bears the stamp of God in his soul. To the Left, which rejects religion and the received understanding of human nature, all of this is hypocritical. Yet they fight hard for the rights of murderers but think the most helpless of creatures have no rights at all. One can well imagine they take the position they do because it is a reversal of the holiness of Man and after all what is a repudiation of it than embracing men who act like the beasts? If Man is not sacred, then what life we accept and reject becomes a matter of arbitrary preference, not bound by a set of universal moral principles.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

60 posted on 11/04/2007 7:20:14 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: hinckley buzzard
Yes, I agree. Natural law is intuitive and should be followed.

The real reason the law never, or seldom, prosecutes women is easy to ascertain. The problem is the unborn child is an “abstract” human being in a psychological sense. Regardless of all the flames directed at this assertion, it is nonetheless true. Pregnant women often see their developing child as “part of their body” and not as a person.

This is why fetal sonograms are not required as a form of informed consent prior to abortions. The reason being a woman who views such a sonogram and sees the child as a child, will often (but not always)avoid the abortion.

Deeper down we have the problem of the fatal dualism of human beings. That is, we are a combination of a biological body and what seems to be a divine sense of being that includes a sense of perpetuity. Without evidence of this divine aspect of humanity, the woman seeking an abortion thinks only in biological terms—this is not a person but a biological developing organism.

Those who want to hate and punish abortion perpetrators, including women, besides having to punish what seems to be an secular abstraction also must explain why in the present day US that over a million women (14,000 alone in Minnesota)do obtain abortions. A wildly popular procedure based on seeing a developing child as an abstraction and not as a person. Very hard to find secular laws to enforce what seems to be an abstract crime.

Soren Kierkegaard was certainly not a Roman Catholic; however, he pointed out the fundamental clash in human nature was between our biological nature and the seeming Godlike “I” or person we experience. One destined to deteriorate and die and the other ? In Kierkegaard’s thinking, avoiding the “dread of death” was the primary conflict man faced. His solution was theological even though his approach was psychological. It did include “natural law.”

61 posted on 11/04/2007 7:23:32 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd

The entire article is CRAP. Who is he to decide what is a theological issue ane what is not?


62 posted on 11/04/2007 7:28:26 AM PST by chesley (Where's the omelet? -- Orwell)
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To: P8riot
Of course we don't call for her execution, we would rather see her restored and whole. We preach forgiveness from sin, not vengeance.

What about murderers & rapists - do you want to see them restored on the principle of forgiveness? Should we abolish all punishment and open the jails? That is a quite unbelievable position.

It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.

The above point from the article, earlier stated by Michael Medved, is a brick wall that people will keep running into, until they take a consistent, logical position on this.

Murder is murder, or it is not. Murder can't happen without a culpable murderer.

63 posted on 11/04/2007 7:31:44 AM PST by Swordfished
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To: Swordfished

What would you say if a mother intentionally gave their 2-year old child a fatal dose of pills so that her child died in his sleep that night?

Would you preach forgiveness, not vengeance?

It is said by some that abortion should be as egregious a crime or worse. Why the inconsistency in dealing with the would-be criminal?


64 posted on 11/04/2007 7:40:54 AM PST by Swordfished
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To: shrinkermd
They only consider it a "religious issue" when you're against it.
65 posted on 11/04/2007 7:52:51 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: shrinkermd

Isn’t this guy one of those “religious left” people recruited by the Demodrat party?


66 posted on 11/04/2007 8:04:28 AM PST by steve8714 (How can we make our children proud today?)
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To: wagglebee; Salvation; NYer; Soul Seeker; nmh

Religious people won’t agree.


67 posted on 11/04/2007 8:08:26 AM PST by Clintonfatigued (You can't be serious about national security unless you're serious about border security)
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To: Swordfished

Natural law says that life begins at conception. It’s also what science says. The liberals say that they determine when a person is created. That, however, is metaphysics. So let’s stick with science, not the liberals religious beliefs


68 posted on 11/04/2007 8:08:35 AM PST by sobieski
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To: madprof98

I bet he likes to hold hands in church.


69 posted on 11/04/2007 8:10:36 AM PST by steve8714 (How can we make our children proud today?)
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To: shrinkermd

Not only do all deserve life, but I would argue the Constitution supports the right to life via the Bill of Rights and the 13th and 14th Amendments; that Roe v. Wade is a very bad “case law” since it adds things (rights) to the Constitution that plainly are not there..THEY’RE MADE UP: Its incompatable to claim to stand for the Constitutional rights of All Americans, and then say there is a RIGHT to Abortion!!..


70 posted on 11/04/2007 8:11:03 AM PST by JSDude1 (When a liberal represents the Presidential Nominee for the Republicans; THEY'RE TOAST)
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To: shrinkermd
The author is grossly ignorant. The majority of the population, according to multiple polls does believe abortion to be an act of murder. Virtually every poll ever done shows the majority wants in banned expect in rare circumstances.
71 posted on 11/04/2007 8:16:47 AM PST by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: Friendofgeorge
Anybody that votes or suggest they will vote for Rudy G, is simply not pro life!!!

Nor is anyone that posts such drivel and that has been pimping Rudy.

72 posted on 11/04/2007 8:18:09 AM PST by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: Ol' Sparky

Hasn’t RG slowly been moving right since he was a Democrat in the 1970s. We will punish him for coming our way, must not fast enough? I don’t know if he’s pro-life, but he’s pro-choice: Doesn’t want to force abortion on tax payers, or medical students, or the courts. That’s a start.


73 posted on 11/04/2007 8:26:03 AM PST by sobieski
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To: All

#8 nails it with:

“The fact is that black slavery and the holocaust were both justified on the same principal that this writer is making, that the victims are NOT FULLY HUMAN.”

on a separate note:
“The universal mandate to preserve “human life” makes no sense.”

the next time a leftist or a prochoice animal rights activist tells you that the unborn aren’t human. remind them that it is animals that aren’t. & most importantly, the lie against the unborn “they’re not human” is what the nazis said about the Jews & what slave traders said about Black people. which puts them in bed with some very strange fellows indeed.

also, is arguing against preserving life, even wahabist life, applicable to the wot !!!!?? hmmmmm ????

this is another point the left hangs themselves on without noticing.

specifically, arguing for convenience killing of the innocent human unborn [fetus is latin for young one] also mutes or makes moot arguments against killing terrorists.

the Ten Commandment’s prohibition of murder does not prohibit self defense or killing in war. killing the innocent however, is murder. killing terrorists is personal defense on an international scale imo.

the gov.t bears the power of the sword to punish the evil doer.

“For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.”
NAS Rom 13:3

now if only all our rulers knew GOD, & the difference between good & evil.


74 posted on 11/04/2007 8:32:40 AM PST by Psalm_2 (1776 - !?? Dec. 7th 1941. Sept. 11th 2001. Self Defense, A Basic Human Right.)
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To: shrinkermd

What articles like this demonstrate is the corruption, the putrefaction, that sets in once a person decides that his intellect exists in order to serve his appetites. Wills decided quite a long time ago to be a bad Catholic, and to make money out of being a bad Catholic. His intellect now lies in ruin, a steaming heap of rotting sludge.


75 posted on 11/04/2007 8:49:14 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: sobieski
Hasn’t RG slowly been moving right since he was a Democrat in the 1970s. We will punish him for coming our way, must not fast enough? I don’t know if he’s pro-life, but he’s pro-choice: Doesn’t want to force abortion on tax payers, or medical students, or the courts. That’s a start.

Rudy has already said he would be for taxpayer funded abortion. He said this last spring.

Where have you been?

76 posted on 11/04/2007 8:52:16 AM PST by dforest (Duncan Hunter is the best hope we have on both fronts.)
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To: shrinkermd

EXODUS 20:6.


77 posted on 11/04/2007 8:59:45 AM PST by 444Flyer (Yeshua, Judge, Jury and Defence Attorney. (John 3.))
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To: 444Flyer

PSALM 139:13.


78 posted on 11/04/2007 9:02:11 AM PST by 444Flyer (Yeshua... Judge, Jury and Defense Attorney. (John 3.))
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To: shrinkermd

Abortion is a MORAL issue.

“Religion” backs that up.

Even an ATHEIST can see and understand that killing a TINY HUMAN BEING IS WORNG.

Don’t blame “religion” while trying to justify EVIL.


79 posted on 11/04/2007 9:09:38 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: sobieski
Hasn’t RG slowly been moving right since he was a Democrat in the 1970s.

No, he governed as a liberal in New York and merely says whatever he has to get elected, just as Bill Clinton did.

“Rudy was first a Democrat who became a Republican just to get a job in a Republican administration, and he’s not done yet. There is no philosophical underpinning to him. There is one of a total amoral philosophy.” -- Alfonse D'Amato

80 posted on 11/04/2007 9:11:32 AM PST by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: goldstategop

The post I responded to was saying that Christians can’t support punishing, much less executing, a “mother” who aborts her innocent child, because Christians are into repentance not vengeance.

My question is why someone who intentionally kills a born person should be severely punished as vengeance, perhaps even executed, while a “mother” who intentionally kills her unborn innocent child is treated as almost a second victim.

If abortion is murder, then a woman who intentionally has an abortion is guilty of premeditated murder. Those who make excuses otherwise sound remarkably like those who make excuses for murderers of older people. Bad childhood, mental health, stressful life, etc.

There are only two ways out of this contradiction. Either the unborn child is not quite a person, which is why his killing can be considererd to be not quite murder, or all who participate in the abortion should be treated as equally culpable.


81 posted on 11/04/2007 9:14:54 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: sobieski
Natural law says that life begins at conception. It’s also what science says. The liberals say that they determine when a person is created. That, however, is metaphysics. So let’s stick with science, not the liberals religious beliefs

Okay, let's go with your view. Are you consistent? Would you support the prosecution and death penalty for mothers who have an abortion in a society where abortion is banned? If not, why not? You should have no hesitation in doing so.

-------

Science says life begins even before conception - the semen & the ovum are 'life'. The question isn't 'when does life begin?' or even 'when does human life being?', it's 'when does personhood begin?'.

Pro-life is better re-termed to 'pro-human life'. God made all kinds of life - human life, animal life, plant life. If one is truly 'pro-life', they are vegetarian and don't use any products that require the killing of animal life.

82 posted on 11/04/2007 10:19:26 AM PST by Swordfished
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To: shrinkermd; 230FMJ; 49th; 50mm; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee or little jeremiah to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]

I'm that the author of this piece probably isn't all that familiar with the Bible, but "Thou shalt not kill," is a pretty familiar phrase.

83 posted on 11/04/2007 10:30:18 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: shrinkermd
Not having an answer tells me you have not really examined your own thinking.

I gave you an answer. If the mothers were culpable under the law but were not prosecuted - which is your claim, I don't know it to be true - then it's because the police and the district attorney were uninterested in doing their job.

Their failure to prosecute, though, does not mean that abortion is not killing.

84 posted on 11/04/2007 10:35:41 AM PST by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan)
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To: shrinkermd

This author is an idiot.


85 posted on 11/04/2007 10:39:34 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain. True support of the troops means praying for US to WIN the war!)
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To: Sherman Logan; Swordfished
The two of you read entirely too much into my comment, or maybe not enough. At any rate you both missed the point entirely. I am as adamantly pro-life as anyone on this board if not more so.

Christ's forgiveness is extended to us no matter what we have done in the past. That is not saying that we should turn murderers and rapists free based on that forgiveness. The common laws given to man hold consequences for having been broken, and in such cases we should expect that we, and others will suffer the consequences of our actions. Justice, a concept that comes from God, requires no less. However, it is not for us to say what will happen to this person spiritually after the fact. It is our duty to confront, admonish, restore, and disciple one another, not to stand as judge jury and executioner. However, if I was as perfect as you two seem to think that you are I would have no problem doing that.

I am not saying that we give these people a pass, but rather that we seek to show Christ's love to them, as He, and others He has put into our lives) have showed it to us, not write them off, based on a mistake.

86 posted on 11/04/2007 10:48:58 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: P8riot

I’m still waiting for a logical reason why the intentional killing of an unborn child should be treated differently under the law than the intentional killing of anyone else. \

Or for that matter why a woman killing her child five minutes before birth should be treated differently from the same woman killing the same child five minutes after birth.

Of course Christ’s forgiveness is available to women who have abortions, but for that matter it is equally available to Jeff Dahmer and Ted Bundy (or was, both gentlemen being deceased).


87 posted on 11/04/2007 10:58:49 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: shrinkermd

Since when is a MORAL issue not an issue for Religion or Politics? Is murdering babies such a regular event in America that we should not think about it.


88 posted on 11/04/2007 11:00:59 AM PST by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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To: ASA Vet
Liberals and think is an Oxymoron.
89 posted on 11/04/2007 11:02:32 AM PST by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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To: Sherman Logan
"Are you equally anxious to see Jeffrey Daumer made “restored and whole?” Or do you preach vengeance for him, but not for her? If so, on what logical basis?

This is not an inconsistency in principle, but a requirement of law enforcement policy.

Law is not required, nor can it be required, to perfectly express justice in an unexceptionable way. It can only restrain the most publicly objectionable practices, and then only in most cases.

For example, the law does not arrest people for "private lying" which does not involve fraud, breach of contract or the like. "Private lying" maybe just as morally heinous, but public authorities simply cannot monitor private communications, and if they attempted to do so, they would do more harm to legitimate personal privacy through universal surveillance than the good they might accomplish.

Concerning abortion: this kind of homicide is harder to prove than other murders, because the victim's very existence may be unknown to every other person on earth except for the mother, and she can "privately" abort using herbal remedies or prescription medicines, for instance a large dose of oral contracaptives, without even facing the inconvenient necessity of disposing of a large And recognizable body.

Therefore the only effective way to use legal power to curb massive numbers of abortions is to focus on shutting down the medical-abortion complex, the funding through insurers and public agencies, concentrating prosecutorial attention on the professional abortionists.

And just about the only way to successfully obtain a conviction would be through the testimony of a woman whose child he aborted: a woman who sees herself as a victim who was exploited by the abortionist.

This is not an entire fiction. Most abortionists are flagrantly guilty of not providing adequate information for tthe woman to make an informed consent, and therefore young and ignorant women often do not possess a criminal mens rea, a sufficent awareness that she is killing a baby.

The doctor, of course, knows. Prosecute the doctors with the cooperation of women who are seen as his victims, and you've shut down most of the abortion industry.

90 posted on 11/04/2007 12:36:04 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear, on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: Sherman Logan

Don’t look for me for a logical reason for that. We don’t live in a logical society.


91 posted on 11/04/2007 12:36:54 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Strikes me as a rationalization, but you word it well.

OTOH, the “mother” in the case could be considered the prime mover in the homicide of the unborn child, with the doctor being only an instrument she uses. The closest analogy I can think of is a wife who hires a hitman to off her husband. The plea that the wily hitman exploited her innocence is just a tad difficult to carry off.


92 posted on 11/04/2007 12:41:37 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Swordfished; shrinkermd; SittinYonder; don-o
I'd be interested in your view of the argument expressed here at #90.
93 posted on 11/04/2007 12:44:07 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear, on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: Swordfished

Yes, there should be a penalty for the doctor and the mother.

In your world, when does personhood begin? Why should a newborn be considered a person? What’s special about that? And if a person has Alzhemeri’s (sp), then do they lose their personhood?


94 posted on 11/04/2007 12:48:57 PM PST by sobieski
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To: Ol' Sparky

I don’t think he governed as a liberal. He cut taxes, de regulated business, regulated the porn industry, defended the BVM, fought crime.


95 posted on 11/04/2007 12:50:23 PM PST by sobieski
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To: goldstategop

But if you accept human life as sacred, doesn’t that automatically preclude the death penalty? If all human life is sacrosanct and that sacrosanctness stems from that life having been infused with the ‘Divine Essence’, doesn’t that mean that only God could ever choose to rescind it? If only God can rescind his Divine Essence, then any killing of a human person for any reason would be a violation of that persons sacredness.

One could go to the Bible and find that God has directed that in the case of Murder we are allowed to take a human life:
Exodus 21:12, He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

But that same chapter of Exodus also contains:
Exodus 21:22, If men stirve, and hurt a woman with child so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

This seems to be indicating that the taking of a life, deemed sacred, is to be punished with death, but that the killing of an unborn child should be punished in a financial manner. It reads as though God is declaring there to be a difference between a living person and an unborn child.

Am I wrong to read this into the Bible?


96 posted on 11/04/2007 12:50:45 PM PST by 49th (this space for rent)
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To: indylindy

I’ll take his 80% on my side, vs Hilary 100% on the other.


97 posted on 11/04/2007 12:51:29 PM PST by sobieski
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To: shrinkermd
The extraordinary capacity of human beings to rationalize evil enables us to gratify ourselves but it does not render evil good.

The fact that millions of women rationalize the killing of their unborn babies does not render evil good, Whether a thing is evil or good is not a matter to be established by majority vote. Even Whether a thing shall be legal or illegal is not always a matter to be established by majority vote. That is why matters of conscience are constitutionally protected against majority rule.

Matters of individual conscience are protected from majority rule because the human capacity to rationalize evil on a wholesale scale is so dangerous. Slavers did not regard Africans as moral human beings . That was the majority opinion in America for centuries and the majority opinion in the American South well into the 19th century. This opinion rationalized the enslavement of millions of Africans in America. Nazis did not regard Jews as moral human beings. This was the majority opinion of Germany. This opinion rationalized the murder of millions of Jews.

Today, millions of women do not regard their unborn babies as moral human beings.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

New Testament or Old, my Bible (the King James version, of course, here quoting Jeremiah) makes clear the fallen nature of man and his infinite capacity to call evil, good and good evil, in order to rationalize his gratification. I have commented sometime ago on any Dennis Prager article the thrust of which is that the most important determinative of one's politics-whether left or right- is one's view of the nature of man, whether he is fallen or perfectible, whether he is essentially good or evil. Liberals think that man is good or at least perfectible with proper training which they are all too willing to provide. Conservatives believe that man is a fallen creature who cannot be educated to virtue but must be reborn, re-created as it were, to a whole new moral perspective.

If one regards man as essentially good (or in this case since were talking about pregnancy, woman) then, in the worldview of the liberal, the decisions of millions of good women about how to regard their unborn babies is very persuasive, indeed conclusive. Surely, 40 million women since Roe vs Wade could not have done an evil thing! A Christian, especially a conservative Christian has no difficulty in emphatically identifying 40 million evil acts. To the conservative Christian this morality is not to be determined by mob rule.

A final word about the kind of women who advance so ardently the rationalizations for 40 million abortions. How do they see the world? I believe they see the world as wholly out of balance and in need of reshaping so that moral justice can prevail. There are many impediments frustrating their ambitions to shape the world. Since we are talking about women, it is not surprising that they regard the traditional role of women as a huge stumbling block to their ambitions which all are global-remember, they want to shape the world. Justice Ginsburg, not surprisingly, has come out and flatly said so on her last dissenting opinion in the abortion case which she lost. I was not alone in regarding her dissent which was read aloud by her from the bench in a rare display by a justice of such pique, to be an articulation of the need to employ abortion as a means to reshape the role of women, to recast her relative power vis-à-vis men. Women like Justice Ginsburg simply believe that women must be able to abort their pregnancies in order to advance their careers and their social lives. You can see my vanity post asserting just this charge here:Ruthie "Remidies" is Preganant! A different view of Gonzolas v. Carhart;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1821509/posts) Others insinuate that women who choose marriage as a career path want to be allowed to attempt to entrap a man with pregnancy and then abort if he fails to marry her. Such women are not ignorant of the methods of birth control but deliberately eschew them in order to get pregnant. How many abortions occur under this Faustian scenario?

If the soul sickness of man seduces him into a compact with evil, the fact that he repeats his sin an infinite number of times does not make evil good. It does not justify him in committing the sin an infinite number of times plus one.

Politicians are no less sinners than the rest of us and, if anything, they have an even greater capacity to rationalize evil for their own gain. If millions of women are committing abortions, that is not a justification for abortion. If a politician who is perhaps not very bright but is undoubtedly smart enough to count, figures out that enforcing a law against millions of women would be politically disastrous, he will rationalize the course which guarantees his own political survival. The failure of this politician to confront evil no more justifies abortion than does the reality that millions of abortions occur.


98 posted on 11/04/2007 12:51:39 PM PST by nathanbedford ("I like to legislate. I feel I've done a lot of good." Sen. Robert Byrd)
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To: sobieski

80% is extremely generous when talking Rudy. I would not consider it conservative.

It is also ignoring fact. Sad thing for you.


99 posted on 11/04/2007 12:55:10 PM PST by dforest (Duncan Hunter is the best hope we have on both fronts.)
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To: Sherman Logan
"The closest analogy I can think of is a wife who hires a hitman to off her husband."

I freely concede that what you're saying is morally accurate (rare is the woman who would believe that her busband is just a mass of cells of dubious humanity) --- but I think what I wrote still stands: you can't shut down the abortion industry without going after, principally, the abortionist, with postabortion women as accusers and not as co-defendants.

And you're never going to be able to prosecute women who engage in do-it-yourself abortions with a handful of OC's.

100 posted on 11/04/2007 12:55:25 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear, on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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