Posted on 12/09/2007 12:49:26 PM PST by aomagrat
Edited on 12/09/2007 12:59:09 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Thanks.
appreciate your work and the links.
Fulton Sheen was once asked, What’s the secret to being a popular preacher? Answer: Preach about the sins they don’t commit.
BTW: I did some reading about this church and the theology behind it. Very controlling, authoritarian, really into denial, shaming on an epic scale, sick, sick repression, etc.
Answer: Yes. It’s a simple procedure: 1) Blame the victim—100%. This is known as “upholding Judeo-Christian standards.” 2) Accuse everybody who wants to talk about the environment/child abuse/dysfunctional families/dysfunctional churches/bad theology of being a relativist and a liberal. 3) Resume lifestyle of blaming/shaming/repressing.
Indeed.
Could you share some of those links? Am a bit curious.
It’s a little unclear, to me . . . while I agree mostly, I think, with what you’ve written about the church from what I’ve heard . . .
I wonder a little bit . . . are you saying that it is your personal conviction that ALL PENTECOSTAL THEOLOGY is . . . out of balance, crazy, whatever or that this particular expression at this particular church is?
Answer: Yes. It’s a simple procedure: 1) Blame the victim—100%. This is known as “upholding Judeo-Christian standards.” 2) Accuse everybody who wants to talk about the environment/child abuse/dysfunctional families/dysfunctional churches/bad theology of being a relativist and a liberal. 3) Resume lifestyle of blaming/shaming/repressing.
= =
I’ve certainly seen that pattern repeatedly in my 61 years. And, it seems to be more than a little evident on this thread.
Mystifying and sad.
I realize we have a human tendency to try and shove all kinds of things into simplistic categories and explanations so we can wrap our minds around them more easily, more comfortably . . .
and,
so we can deal with them, cope with them more comfortably, with less troublesome feelings and decision making in our daily lives.
But . . . gads . . . such tendencies seem to have become obsessive-compulsive cardinal doctrines of the self-righteous white-washed tomb club or something . . .
LIFE IS COMPLEX.
The principles of living life for God and from His perspective are relatively simple. Living those out, walking those out CAN OFTEN BE at least somewhat complex depending on one’s level of spiritual maturity and experience, understanding etc.
Things do not tend to come labeled in neon lettering in tidy little black/white categories. A LOT of things can take seeking God’s face on to discern a proper response to.
A LOT of things are mixtures or good things buried in bad and bad things buried in good . . . and some things a tossed salad of good and evil. Discerning proper responses to each mixture can be a bit more complicated than simplist knee jerk reactions, imho.
What’s your perspective on these pontificating assertions of mine?
I respect your perceptiveness and candor. Thanks Big.
You do know that the shooter did not attend the church he shot up, yes?
His family had involvement with that church.
Mom evidently called on at least one leader there to come and try and aid her in . . . questionable control efforts with the boy as at least a late teen.
You got it! We're just a bunch of Pollyannas who think that a mass murderer bears the responsibility for his crimes. How utterly naive of us!
Haven't we learned a single thing from the Sixties, when the super-intelligent Liberal Elites of our nation made the astounding discovery that criminals aren't responsible for their actions, but rather it's "the fault of Society, who forced them to be that way"?
We're just too stupid to see the blinding truth you're shining down on us, that MM is the true victim.
Anyone who hates Pentecostals can clearly see it's his mother's church that is at fault here. Why, they practically did everything but pull the trigger!
And anyone who had an awful relationship with their mothers can instantly see it was she who is The True Perp here.
And anyone who hates homeschoolers and the threat they pose to the teachers' unions can see who the real guilty party is!
And anyone related in any way to the mental health profession, counseling, etc, can instantly see it definitely wasn't the fault of the myriad mental health professionals and counselors who the boy saw, but was rather the fault of the parents for not sending him to more of these people, or that they didn't send him to the right ones. And of course it's always the fault of Society for not spending ten times more tax $$ on mental health than we do now.
Oh, don't you just love it when these things happen, because it's such a fantastic learning experience for those of us in the Ignorant Unwashed Masses to sit at the feet of the wise gurus who come out of their caves after mass killings like this, and teach us great lessons of life, by pointing the fingers of blame at everybody except the finger that pulled the trigger.
What a tragedy that Agatha Christie wrote all those great murder mysteries in the pre-Sixties era. The characters waste the entire novel trying to find out who pulled the trigger or poisoned the food. If only she had been born later, she could have put those marvelous writing skills to better use and given us truly great plots, where the shooter or poisoner or knife-wielder is revealed in the first few pages. Once we know who this "victim" is, then the detective can spend the rest of the novel tracking down the True Guilty Ones responsible for making the shooter/poisoner into the person s/he is today.
You bet! That church certainly got what they deserved, for paying the salary of a preacher who was seeing a gay prostitute. Smart of you to figure that out! Why, I'm sure you said the exact same thing I did, when you first heard about those two young sisters bleeding their lives out in the parking lot while their horrified family watched: "Hey! That's justice. Who did they think they were anyway, going to Ted Haggard's ex-church? Serves 'em right!"
Of course, none of the church members, not even Haggard's family, had an inkling what he was doing, and he was forced out of there when they found out the truth. But hey, if the head pastor is a hypocrite, then so is the entire congregation, right? MM's family lived near Denver, not Colorado Springs, and so didn't attend that church. But MM read the news stories about Haggard's hypocrisy, and just knew he had to do something about it. It sounds like you've made a great case for MM being the Avenging Angel sent by heaven to see that justice is done in this world.
And here all these stupid people were watching the news last week thinking they were seeing a rerun of "Columbine," when actually it was a rerun of "Touched By An Angel".
When I wrote that, I didn’t even know that Haggard was connected with that church. But I did know some of what the church’s theology and practices did to the shooter. It was abusive.
Furthermore, the concept of “judgment” doesn’t mean that the guilty suffer and the innocent are spared. That will not be true until the Final Judgment. “Judgment” in the meantime means the NATURAL consequences of folly—and the innocent suffer along with, or often, instead of, the guilty.
Nothing that I said meant that the innocent people killed “got what they deserved.” The double life of Ted Haggard was probably the least of the follies involved.
I’m not aware of having said that the shooter was not responsible.
Yes Arthur, but sadly, that's how these know-nothings operate. They do this ALL the time. Just look at how many people rushed to scapegoat Charles Manson for the Tate LaBianca murders. And how many people put all the blame on Hitler, Himmler, et al for the Holocaust. Or scapegoated Mao Tse-tung and Stalin for breaking a few tens of millions of "eggs" to "make their omelets".
So, just as with that great rallying cry of the early 90's ("It's the Economy, stupid!"), let us rally around our own noble slogan:
"It's the Churches and the Mothers, stupid!"
Then don't use a word if you don't know what it means.
I was responding to your saying this: a bunch of Pollyannas who want to scapegoat this poor kid.
"scapegoat" is defined as "someone punished for the errors of others. A whipping boy."
I.e., this word is saying (and you are thus saying) that the ones truly responsible for the crime are not getting the blame, and someone (MM) who is not responsible is.
Would you care to elaborate on how the theology and practices of a church that MM did not attend was abusive to him?
But just as it was being laid to rest, a new voice has helped resuscitate it.
In the post I am replying to, he says of New Life:
this church has experienced a judgment on its hypocrisy
And later in post 2771, he expands on that with:
The double life of Ted Haggard was probably the least of the follies involved.
Just thought y'all might be interested!
(Pssst! Look at those beady eyes. What other nefarious plots do you think they were involved in?) 
Sound bite sized explanations, sound bites, sound bites ..... hmm..... Do you mean like, "The incest-prone mother did it!" ??
(Pssst! Look at those beady eyes. What other nefarious plots do you think they were involved in?) <<<
Today, to some people, Love for our Lord is wrong, difficult for me to understand that one.
Two Lovely young Christians, is what I see.
Haggard paid a price for his sins, it cost his entire family.
The Church, should go forward, as it is doing, to serve God.
My opinion.
I’ve repeatedly said—probably more than a dozen times that the kid bears responsibility for his choices and actions—awesome, terminal responsibility, actually.
But facts don’t seem to bother some folks in their pontificating perceptions and interpretations.
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