Posted on 12/30/2007 6:28:05 AM PST by Fennie
Believe what you want, you are a literalist and I won't try to talk you out of it. This country was founded and built by people who believed every word of the Bible was the literal word of God. I respect their view, and won't denigrate it the way that media elites do. Some very smart people take the Bible literally, and that's fine.
As for me, I believe that the Bible (old Testament) was an ongoing chronicle of the Jewish people. Parts are mythological and the result of oral traditions handed down by a stone/bronze age people. The flood story clearly came from Babylon. There probably was a flood at the end of the last ice age, sudden or gradual, that was remembered by many peoples in their oral traditions. But there is no way the earth was covered by water up to the mountaintops at any time in the last few hundred million years. Ask yourself this: where did the water go?
At some point in the telling, the Bible becomes more historical than mythological, albeit an idealized history, containing also poetry, prophesy and morality tales. The archeological record supports the validity of many, if not all, of the key factual statements made in the Bible once it became a historical record. There really was a Moses, although his story was so long ago it is difficult to verify. Easier to prove are the historical figures of David, Solomon and all that occurred from their reign to Roman times. Jerusalem, the Temple, the cities mentioned, the wars chronicled, etc., all really did occur for the most part.
Museums have thousands of artifacts from humans, some of which date back hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions of years. However, wooden artifacts do not last very long, and so most are lost within a few hundred years. For that reason, for example, we have only a few pieces of Viking ships in existence, and the best of those come from burials. There are no Greek triremes that have ever been found, we only have a few pictures, although there were thousands of them in existence just 2400 years ago. If there was a 5000 year old boat sitting out in the elements on a mountain in Anatolia, it would be reduced to dust long beore the 1830s.
For that reason, it would not disprove the flood story to hike up Mt. Ararat and not find a boat. It would prove nothing. So, for a scientist to try to disprove the flood by hiking up the mountain would just be a waste of time. For someone with faith to hike up the mountain to try to find an ark would make sense, because if they find one, it would help prove the truth of their belief. People have gone up there; no one has found an ark. The plank of wood someone found once was dated to more recent times, as I recall. Maybe Haji left it up there for his fire.
If the ark is still around I’m building my next house out of gopher wood. For sure.
Ping to read later
You said — “No one has seen it.”
Well, that’s the issue — right there. You see..., either you’ve got a bunch of people (throughout recent history, of the last 150 years) saying that they’ve seen it and simply making it up, or else all of them or some of them or one of them has seen it.
To me it just seems that since the locals maintain that it is up there and it’s something that has been carried down through history (even longer than the 150 years that I’m talking about in recent history) — that this is an indication of a definite object up there.
It could very well be that (upon investigation) that people may find a completely different kind of object up there than we’re thinking about. But, whatever it is that is up there, it seems to have a long history with the locals (going a long ways back in history) and it’s commonly believed by the locals (without straining their belief) that it’s the ark that is up there.
Now, I’ve read where others have brought back something and the item was discredited (i.e., not old enough and therefore not part of the ark). There are going to be people like that (either by mistake or purposely deceiving people). I know that’s going to happen, too. And then others have gone up there and have ended up believing that the ark is actually somewhere else and not on that mountain. And, heck, you’ve even got astronauts going up there looking for the ark.
You could be right, that it’s not that particular mountain that it’s on. Perhaps some of these other reports (out of history) are describing a different location and people have gotten mixed up. But, since that mountain is so big and so identifiable, it’s hard to believe that these other reports have mixed up this location for another one.
When you say “believe what you want” — it’s just that, yes, I do take the account of the Bible to be true and accurate, in respect to the world-wide flood, encompassing the entire globe, and covering all the mountains (keeping in mind that those mountains would not have been as high as we have them, today, because of the drastic changes in the topography that would have happened after such a catastrophic event). I say that, because Jesus gave His own credibility to the fact that the Bible account was true and accurate. He used that account (of the world-wide flood and Noah and the number of survivors on the ark) for an example of a judgement coming (of a different type than a flood) from the same type of society that existed back then and having it come suddenly.
In other words, Jesus used this as an accurate and true historical example for what He was saying was coming in the future. Therefore, anyone who takes Jesus for who He says He is (which is the Creator God [of the godhead] of the universe), then He would know exactly what He was saying and He would say only what was the truth. Either that — or else — you don’t have a Jesus who is who He says He is. In other words, either that is true (as He says it, about the world-wide flood and the ark) or He is a fake.
So, yes, the belief of that (about the ark) is dependent upon Jesus and who He is and if what He says is true or not. As Christians, we take that as true because it comes from an *unimpeachable source*.
But, that still doesn’t say anything about its location today — of course, and that’s what some people are looking for. And that’s why some of those statements about people in the past seeing it are credible, because it’s entirely conceivable that it has survived. It’s not beyond any reasonable conclusion that this is the case.
In terms of where the water went... well, as I was saying before, the topography would have changed drastically and whereas there wouldn’t have been the very high mountains (as we see now) and not these great ocean depths — afterwards, with the forces unleashed at that time, land masses split apart, mountain ranges were created, high mountains came in to being, and ocean depths increased dramatically. The great ocean basins hold (now) a lot of water and land masses have been pushed up very high in other places. That’s just a quick rundown of how a more level earth would have been easily covered and where the water has gone, now.
Now, as to what the Bible really is — from what Christians see from the Bible and from them knowing of the existence of God and knowing that Jesus is the Creator God of the universe and part of the godhead — they take it from the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles that the Bible is God’s Word that He caused to have been written through those 40 authors (that He chose) over a period of thousands of years, which is more than a simple humanly-created writing or historical account (although it contains history and was written by those God chose to do His writing). Christians see it (and also believe what the Bible says about itself) in that it’s God’s speaking and writing directly to mankind (or rather, anyone who chooses to listen to Him). So, it’s much more than an on-going historical account and a collection of stories of some group of people out of ancient history. It’s the actual words of our Creator God, spoken to mankind and letting them know exactly who He is, what He has done and what He is going to do and also — to let everyone know the provision He has made for the salvation of mankind — for all those who choose to avail themselves of what God has provided.
The Bible is recognized — by those who do take it as truth about who Jesus is and who God is and what He has done — the absolute and unerring truth to mankind about all those things that God has chosen to reveal and say to us.
There is quite a bit in the Bible that is beyond the ability and knowledge of us on earth to be able to check out and verify right now. But, God has given additional and accompanying information (which can be and has been verified), along with the example and history of the Jews, and the life and proof from Jesus, to verify those other things which are out of the scope of our ability right now.
And then there are those things which have been told to us in advance of them happening. There are still things right now which have not happened, but which are due to happen — and those things can be verified.
One of the grand things of the Bible, which even Christians came to not believe after a long while (but not all came to not believe) was that Israel would ever come back into existence — ever again. After a long while (of over a thousand years and more) many Christians began to “write it off” as something that they did not understand right and started to “allegorize” some of those things — and make them “not be factual” (in terms of the existence of Israel, which was *required* for the “end times events” detailed in the Bible).
There were a few Christians who still did take the Bible at its word and still believed that Israel would exist once again. And — it did happen, one day. And that’s one of the grand prophecies of the Bible, that Israel would come back into existence, once again — something that no other nation has ever done before, in the history of mankind, after a nation has been so thoroughly defeated and its people scattered all over the world and that nation never existing as a corporate entity for over a thousand plus years. But, it did happen to Israel, basically because God said it would cause it to happen just before these end days events were to start happening. And so, there it is now...
And there are many other prophecies that the Bible has told about, years and years before they happened. That’s one of the “verifications” for the Bible and that it comes from God and no one else.
Another prophecy for something that will happen in Israel is that their Temple will be built once again. Many think that will be impossible, but not according to the Bible. And also the sacrificial system (that they had back at the time of Jesus) will be started up, once again. And it will be at the Temple mount, in Jerusalem. Now, that’s one you can sit and wait and see if it happens. The Bible indicates that it will happen. Thus, it’s something that will be able to be “verified” or not.
There’s a whole list of things that one could go over that have been told ahead of time (by the Bible, I mean) and they have happened. That’s a hallmark of the Bible in how it verifies itself through concrete historical events. That’s how we can tell that it’s really the “Word of God” in that it’s only God, Himself that is able to know the end (of things) from the beginning (and the beginning of even before mankind was here).
As far as going up the mountain to prove that the ark did *not* exist or that the flood did *not* happen — well..., I would rather work from the other side and look for the ark for the purpose of showing that it’s actually there and did exist.
Regards,
Star Traveler
I don’t believe those who claim to have seen it but can offer no proof. On any given day there are probably more folks who think they see a UFO than total people who have claimed to have seen the Ark. Even Bigfoot, the abominable snowman, Nessie, and Champ each have more “eyewitnesses”. So the sightings mean nothing without full documentation. We’ve got photos of Bigfoot, Nessie, and Champ, and we’ve got a fur sample from the Yeti.
I’m going to need more than the typical, “I saw it on a secret wartime mission took photos and later had them stolen along with my 200 MPG Carburetor prototype.”
I would love for the Ark to be found, but this “I found it but now it is lost again” stuff is the type of lie only a fool believes. If and when it is found it will become a tourist site like many of the other great archaeological discovery sites. People will sell maps, T-shirts, post cards, posters, and make a buck off of it any way they can. It will not get lost again.
Purported Sightings Of Noah’s Ark —
http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=XForum&file=print&fid=3&tid=172%...
What is the big deal with choppering up there and having a darn good look, maybe with ground-penetrating radar? Must be a couple-three thousand millionaires able to finance this sort of expedition without being reduced to breadlines and the homeless shelter, not to mention The National Geographic Society and Virgin Airlines.
And please to spare this olde trooper the "Sensitive Military Area" horse pucky. I've seen satellite photos that show SOMETHING there. Again, I ask: what the heck is the big deal with going up and taking a proper look?
You asked — “Again, I ask: what the heck is the big deal with going up and taking a proper look?”
I would agree — in doing an agressive search and using all the necessary science and tools to do it all.
But, with all those things, it seems to come down to financing and politics (and sometimes) religion. There have been problems (of one sort or another) blocking this from being done. And no matter how “theoretically possible” it seems to be, it comes down to the fact that it has not been possible to do it properly.
For one thing, it is another country and one simply cannot “go in there and search”. There has to be permission granted. That has not been easy to come by, from what I’ve read before. I can’t tell you why that’s the case, other than the fact that it has been the case.
So, in answer to your question as to what the problem is, I would imagine it does come down to issues of financing, government/politics and religion.
Regards,
Star Traveler
Well, that’s an interesting site. It’s a “preterist” site. The significance of that is that since the committed preterists (not just the “partial preterists”) say that Jesus Christ has already come (for His Second Coming), back in 70 AD — and so — there is no further “Second Coming”. That’s it.
As we all know that is not basic, historic and foundational Christian teaching and doctrine, but it is the teaching and doctrine of those committed preterist (the full preterists). There are “partial preterists” who “get it” from both sides — the basic and foundational Christians and the full preterists (as being “half-way” between the two).
So, what I’m saying is that if they can’t “get it right” with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ — I really don’t think they inspire confidence on “getting it right” with the flood, either (which apparently they deny... LOL...).
There is one thing that Jesus seems to indicate to us, that is a big characteristic of these end days just before He does return to set up the Kingdom of God on this earth — and that is “deception”. And deception has taken hold, not only in society but also in the church itself. It’s spreading dramatically, these days, just like the Bible indicates it would.
That link to the information on the flood (from the Preterists viewpoint) is —
http://www.truthinliving.org/index.php?pr=Global_Flood
Interesting, but, as I said, trusting a group (like the full preterists) that teach a heretical view that Jesus Chrit’s second coming has already happened in 70 AD is not wise...
Regards,
Star Traveler
We can't even find Jimmy Hoffa and he allegedly died 32 years ago.*
*He and James Dean are running a dry goods store in Moab, Utah.
A follow-up to the “Preterist” website. In that book that they include on their website, they say this at the beginning of it...
“There are few issues among conservative Christians surrounded by greater controversy than the proper understanding of Genesis. Today, many Christians with a high view of Scripture give their full attention to Genesis. This is not just a modern phenomenon. Augustine focused on Genesis when he developed many of the seed ideas we today call “Historic Christian Theology.” No one suggests he explained every detail properly, but he was right about one thing. The book of Genesis is at the heart of Christianity. Without a proper understanding of Genesis, the biblical revelation of salvation in Jesus Christ is in jeopardy. A proper understanding of the Bible begins in the book of Genesis. Mistakes made here will inevitably ripple across the rest of the Bible.”
Now, I would agree that a proper understanding of Genesis is foundational to Christianity. However, the preterist heretical teachings (especially about Jesus Christ having already returned for His second coming in 70 AD) are not the way to go.
I would look at the website “Answers in Genesis” and perhaps get a chance to go to their new museum too. It’s highly recommended.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
You can see information about the museum here —
http://www.creationmuseum.org/
It comes highly recommended from many Christian sources...
Regards,
Star Traveler
SIM, SIM, SALABIM!
With modern power tools it took over 300 man-years of labor to build each of the Ark 'replicas'.
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