Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

Telegraph ^ | 25 Feb 2008 | Jonathan Petre

[Swordmaker]

Re: #s 250, 261, 284, and 293

I’m so ashamed. And reprehensible.

There must be blood all over Jack’s floor from all those deep wounds I inflicted. ;^)>

[irish guard]

Lurking and browsing at this topic lead me to the last page of discourse......and reminded me of why I stopped posting and now mostly lurk.

[grey_whiskers]

You would've *really* loved the old crevo threads ;-)

Full Disclosure: try reading the entire thread, or if you don't want to do that start at the beginning and search for "SpringheelJack". Click on the "View Replies" next to that post and work forward.

Cheers!

[irish guard]

I read teh first hundred or so and then went to the last page to see if there was anything new. I think I’ll pass and wait for the results of the new tests on the Shroud. All this happy, cheery banter back and forth has led to a diminished appetite over anything either of you have bothered to type. Time will tell, or perhaps not, but I’ll at least spare myself the need to read more “I’m right and you’re not” stuff and let the scientists sort it out.

[grey_whiskers]

I notice you've been on FR a lot longer than me, but this is the first time I specifically recall conversing with you. What is interesting is that if a poster makes enough noise and throws enough dust in the air, it can confuse lurkers and those who haven't studied the subject...

Time will tell, or perhaps not, but I’ll at least spare myself the need to read more “I’m right and you’re not” stuff and let the scientists sort it out.

The scientists *have* sorted it out.

McCrone is one scientist (IIRC now deceased) who used one method (polarizing microscopy) and proclaimed the presence of pigments. To my knowledge he did not use either positive controls (other known examples of the items in question, either blood or paint) to compare with the Shroud. His results have not been replicated by independent labs; and when he gave samples to the independent labs for the testing they did, he violated the agreed-upon protocols for treating the samples. His one published work came about 10 years *after* he performed it, and only after the carbon dating there has been so much fuss about.
The fuss about the carbon dating has been covered in this thread -- the problem is that the sampling was all from one area of the Shroud, and in particular from an area which had been adulterated many many years ago. This is a systematic bias in the execution of this particular test, and not some whining about "C-14 isn't a valid methodology" as you might see on a crevo thread. If the re-testing is done with attention to detail, custody and preparation of the sample, and controls, it might put that particular issue to rest.

By contrast, the other labs used a large number of independent tests for different blood components, including aged breakdown products of hemoglobin, blood proteins, iron as it was would be found in blood, microscopic examination of the fibers on the shroud itself, and using many different chemical and physical tests. Many of these tests have been well-established outside of the study of the Shroud, and the tests have included controls, and been published in genuine independent-peer-review mainstream journals.
All of these tests were positive for blood and protein components, but not for paint or pigments.

Finally, the current "state of the art" regarding the actual composition of the image on the Shroud, is that it is the result of Maillard reactions taking place between gases coming off of a newly dead corpse, and the wrapping. This is entirely a naturalistic explanation and does not require any miraculous intervention.

See posts #122, #132, #145, #173, #175, #185, and #261.

There. 300+ posts condensed to less than a dozen.

You could also look at the hypertext links provided in #261.

For the "personal" stuff, please re-read post #337...I have included explicit instructions on how to report abuse to the mods. So far, SpringheelJack is the only one whose posts have been removed by the moderator.

Cheers!

[Bellflower]

The cloth that was in contact with Almighty God as He was raising from the dead through resurrection power... might it be possible that this cloth became changed and aged differently than any other cloth would?

[Bellflower]

Joseph and Mary brought two birds.

Or maybe it was because He is The Lamb of God Himself?

[aruanan]

There have been numerous theories purporting to explain how the tests could have produced false results, but so far they have all been rejected by the scientific establishment.

"The scientific establishment" is a reification. It's meant to convey an idea of an authoritative body the deliberations of which are rational and trustworthy. In this case, though, it really means an amalgamation of people united in the hope that the Shroud of Turin be anything that what it has been purported to be, clutching the methodology of radiocarbon testing to their breasts as a talisman and shouting "scientific, scientific" to avoid looking at the many ways the tests as performed could be faulty. They got the results they wanted to confirm their beliefs and use them to discount all the other corroborative details that make those results suspect.

[Jedidah]

Nice point :-).

Probably both — poor in the eyes of the world, but immeasurably rich in the blessing God had given them, and careful to follow in every way what He told them to do.

Have a blessed day.

[Bob Eimiller]

Come on, the shroud’s a fake...a pretty cleaver one too

If you could spell I might have considered your comment as thoughtful... even credible... but, because you obviously can't... I'll file it as moronic.

[Bellflower]

...which was supposedly created from the living Christ as a gift to King Abgar.

....just as he made everything from nothing in his divine strength, he imprinted the reflection of HIS FORM on the linen.

....By the simple touching to the face of Christ, an image of HIS FORM was made,

... – for the most beautiful part is the face, not that which is below the armpits –

– I attribute the light shining out not to my own face but rather to the face of the one on the cloth".

It appears that they did have knowledge of the cloth but seemed to have made up or became privy to an embellished story that had grown up around it, possibly mixed with truth.

It appears that in the story around the cloth, King Abgar was seeking to look at the face of Christ and that is why so much of the emphasis is upon the face.

It is interesting to me because I had my own personal miracle concerning the face of Jesus Christ, light and the shroud. I understand the emphasis on the face of Christ. About 30 or so years ago I was cleaning house for a young, wealthy, Muslim man. We had conversed often about our differing faiths. I, at one point, had given to him a paperback book about the shroud. When I was making his bed one day I noticed the book there and picked it up and opened it to a picture of the face of Christ on the shroud. I was looking intently at the picture trying to see what Christ face actually looked like. In my heart, with earnest desire, I let The Lord God know that I really wanted to clearly see what Jesus face looked like. Something happened that was totally unexpected. In an instant I had a wonderful and clear vision of the face of Jesus Christ in all of His glory. Visible light was streaming from His beautiful face. The light looked sort of like beautiful water but it was clear to see that the light that was streaming out from His face was actually love.