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Radio Silence
The Wall Street Journal ^ | March 28, 2008 | Mollie Ziegler Hemingway

Posted on 03/27/2008 8:48:07 PM PDT by The Shrew

Usually radio hosts have to offend sacred moral sensibilities to be thrown off the air. Opie and Anthony were fired after they encouraged a couple to have sex in St. Patrick's Cathedral. Don Imus lost his job after using racist and sexist epithets against the Rutgers University women's basketball team.

But when the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod canceled its popular, nationally syndicated radio program "Issues, Etc.," listeners were baffled. Billed as "talk radio for the thinking Christian," the show was known for its lively discussions analyzing cultural influences on the American church. It seemed like precisely the thing that the Missouri Synod, a 2.4-million-member denomination whose system of belief is firmly grounded in Scripture and an intellectually rigorous theology, would enthusiastically support.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: issuesetc; kfuo; lcms; lutheran; radio
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Which order of service does your congregation use?


51 posted on 03/28/2008 12:58:38 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Terriergal

From the PCA: RC Sproul, D. James Kennedy, M. Horton, Peter Leithart, Tim Keller, the list goes on...

Not liberal at all (although some have been found to sing something other than the Trinity Hymnal :>)


52 posted on 03/28/2008 1:07:32 PM PDT by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
I am in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Our parish doesn't even have female Eucharistic ministers or Altar girls. Despite howls from some of the democrat dummies/Main Line matrons and touchy-feely "God should make you feel good about yourself!" dorks, our parish has remained conservative.

We even get fire and brimstone on Sunday, via Monsignor's homilies!

Too many churches have decided ti disregard the parts of the Bible that make then squirm uncomfortably.

53 posted on 03/28/2008 1:16:41 PM PDT by Malacoda (A day without a pi$$ed-off muslim is like a day without sunshine.)
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To: Mr. Lucky
Do you mean in the hymnal or do you mean which hymnal? It's the new hymnal. I think it's dark red. I use it every week. You'd think I would know.

We usually use the first setting beginning on page 151 but it varies.

I like the hymnal very much as it points out where the text is found in the Bible. It shows it's not just boring repetition but actually comes from scripture.

We have a very nice short Wed. evening service, also from the new hymnal. It uses lots of psalms.

Someone did a nice job with the new hymnal.

54 posted on 03/28/2008 1:17:27 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Malacoda

Girls serve as acolytes but do not help with communion. That is only done by the pastor and an elder. Women are not elders.


55 posted on 03/28/2008 1:20:03 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
The Lutheran Service Book is an improvement of sorts over its immediate predecessor in that it restores a congregation's ability to observe the traditional liturgy, and a number of hymns previously butchered. However much you like the Divine Service, Setting One, Settings Three and Five would give you goose bumps. (But, of course, all of these settings are head and shoulders above the "contemporary" services which seem to have overwhelmed my home congregation.)
56 posted on 03/28/2008 2:02:49 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky
Setting Three in LSB is very similar to the older TLH service. It has four-part harmonies available for the responses. Some of us gals in the choir sing the alto part just for fun. We have more or less picked it up on our own. I wish I could get our choir director to go through the parts with the choir. Perhaps I will try, but she is not very responsive to suggestions. We have done several of the Settings. Our pastor says some are better for different seasons of the church year. They are all okay, but I really do like Setting Three the best.

I hope your congregation has put Fray-Stop on the ribbons in LSB. They fray like crazy and can get ruined very fast once they start to go.

57 posted on 03/28/2008 3:10:40 PM PDT by Irene Adler (')
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To: The Shrew
Self ping for follow up.

Still waiting on the “real” reason.

Some excuses were made saying it was because of money, but this was the most popular and widely known show!

58 posted on 03/28/2008 4:02:37 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Boagenes

Depends on where you are. On paper, yes the RCC is pretty sound. But some parish’s are down right nuts.


59 posted on 03/28/2008 4:04:39 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma; Boagenes
Funny story, and one I love to tell.

My bride is Catholic, and when we were dating (in Lincoln, Nebraska, a very conservative spot for both groups) she told her priest that she was dating a LCMS Lutheran.

He smiled and said “Well he should be very conservative, probably more than you are used to, but that will be all right.”

The sad thing is that there are a lot of CINO’s (many Catholic Freepers talk of them often) who are very nutty.

60 posted on 03/28/2008 4:13:07 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum

Lincoln has that very conservative bishop. I don’t recall his name. His conservatism is so unique among Catholics that he gets publicity because of it. I admire him very much.


61 posted on 03/28/2008 6:50:35 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz shepherds the Diocese of Lincoln.


62 posted on 03/28/2008 8:07:47 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Philo-Junius

Thank you. He’s a very good man.


63 posted on 03/29/2008 4:57:03 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: irishtenor

ah I must be thinking of a different presby.


64 posted on 03/29/2008 7:13:28 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Moose4

I must be thinking of a different presbyterian... can’t remember now! :-\


65 posted on 03/29/2008 7:14:09 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

While I haven’t seen it, I have been annoyed at what is LEFT OUT of certain hymns and words that are changed.

And taking out ‘thee’ and ‘thou’ often ruins the entire sense of poetry in the hymns. Not that that is of extreme importance but if they’re worried so much about musicality and the ‘mood’ and ‘feel’ music provides (which seems to be the way the seeker sensitive philosophy points) then they should leave the hymns as they are and incorporate more modern songs to give people a ‘break’ from the old style poetry.

But frankly, what they try to do is find emotional songs that often say nothing and use those because of the emotional response they get.

I do know in our previous church (not LCMS either) there is a lot of social gospel injected into the hymns. Irritating.

And in our current church there are little ‘writings’ from various streams of Christian thought... including stuff from ‘free will’ advocates and also from reformed theology. It makes no coherent sense but appeals to a wider demographic. And that’s what it’s all about these days.

When the ELCA/LCA got new hymnals in the late 70’s early 80’s I must say I still like the liturgy and can still sing it by heart. BUT the ELCA is a wasteland.


66 posted on 03/29/2008 7:19:37 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

I agree. It used to be that denominations tried to make sure their pastors actually believe what the denomination teaches... and were willing to teach it ALL. But now they aren’t so strict and once you are ordained very often no one (especially the laity) is checking up on you. If they do they chalk it up to ‘minor differences’ not worthy of correction.


67 posted on 03/29/2008 7:21:26 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Gamecock

Maybe it was PCUSA I was thinking of...


68 posted on 03/29/2008 7:22:21 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Wilhelm Tell

Nah, it’s not ‘to each his own’ — what you are seeing is evidence of error in teaching (either by avoiding difficult subjects or by plain old teaching what is WRONG) — and you are right to avoid it.

Kieschnick of the LCMS seems to be looking at what looks like ‘success’ in the other purpose driven churches and experiencing a prolonged case of church-envy. The love of money is the root of all evil...


69 posted on 03/29/2008 7:24:14 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: SoDak

good for you!

Beware though, Jim Johnson (for one) of the AFLC is pushing Purpose Driven and the AFLC isn’t doing a thing about it.

I wrote a post here
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/03/sermon-on-kings-stilts.html
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/03/will-aflc-be-next.html

I wrote both to Bob Lee (in 06 I think - he was my faculty advisor when I was there, as well as my husband’s) and now to Fran Monseth and they just said they can’t say anything about it. Congregationalism you know... they just count on their good teaching in the seminary and bible school (I WENT to that Bible School, so did my husband, and we still got duped by purpose driven/seeker sensitive for a while!) to protect the churches.

I said that wouldn’t help the laypeople in the churches. And what about Jim Johnson? No answer.

Of course Monseth tried to tell his doctrine II class that drinking alcohol was a sin and he could prove it from Scripture. He then went on to cite anecdotal and personal experience as evidence. (not that he ever drank I don’t think - but he knows people who have that problem) — my husband (then fiance) pointed out that none of that was Scriptural support, and he didn’t really like that.

There is a moralistic bent in the AFLC that is also to be avoided, and those people are the ones who don’t see much danger in the works-centered moralistic approach of purpose-driven and other church growth philosophies. They either embrace it or minimize the danger.


70 posted on 03/29/2008 7:30:00 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: The Shrew; madison10; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; A2J; Lee N. Field; ears_to_hear; GOPPachyderm; ...

http://bringbackissues.blogspot.com/2008/03/hemingway-interview-on-wsj-article.html

Michael Horton of The White Horse Inn interviews the author of the article. Good interview.


71 posted on 03/29/2008 7:53:27 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Terriergal
Thank you! That was an outstanding interview. Mollie knows her stuff. She needs to write a book on the subject.

Regards,

TS

72 posted on 03/29/2008 10:26:00 AM PDT by The Shrew (www.ToSetTheRecordStraight.com/www.swiftvets.com/www.wintersoldier.com-The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: Terriergal

The PCA is conservative, at least for now, but there are elements within the PCA that are trying to liberalize it. The OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) is still very conservative. The Christian Reformed Church went the way of the liberals.

Right now, my husand and I stay home on Sundays and listen to sermons online, because there are no conservative Reformed churches in our area. We had considered going to a LCMS church, even though we’re plain Presbyterians and don’t go for all their high church falderal, because there was one LCMS church in our area that still had a traditional service and pretty good, serious biblical preaching (even though not Reformed), but they are starting to get a little loosey-goosey now, too.

We live in a suburb of a medium-sized city, and we can’t find one good, conservative church that preaches from the Bible and has a traditional service that is within reasonable driving distance (I’m talking less than an hour) from where we live. We are quite discouraged.


73 posted on 03/29/2008 1:57:12 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Gamecock

Greetings, Fellow Reformed Freeper :-)

The PCA is starting to have some issues. Apparently, the notion of having women deacons is being seriously considered, although they wouldn’t be ordained, so “technically” they could get away with it. This is how the liberalization process begins, of course - the camel’s nose in the tent. When will people realize that every denomination that ordains women, eventually embraces ordaining homosexuals. God does indeed mean what He says.

BTW, we left the PCA church in our area due to the increasingly liberal sermons. We thought we were back in the PCUSA, which we had left decades earlier due to its liberalism.


74 posted on 03/29/2008 2:02:13 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Pining_4_TX

I hear ya.... this is becoming a very common story. :-(

ever listen to Bob Dewaay?? he has some great stuff online

Http://www.twincityfellowship.com

and

http://www.cicministry.org


75 posted on 03/29/2008 4:31:06 PM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Pining_4_TX

I think if by ‘deacons’ they don’t mean ‘elders’ then women are OK but... too often the words are used interchangeably.


76 posted on 03/29/2008 4:32:06 PM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Pining_4_TX
Right now, my husand and I stay home on Sundays and listen to sermons online, because there are no conservative Reformed churches in our area.

That doesn't sound healthy.

Could I point you to this post, most specifically this excerpt:

In the early 19th century the Dutch Reformed Church had come under state control. In the cabinet a 'Minister for Religious Matters' had been appointed and there were few queries in the Christian denomination about such a development; none from its hierarchy. Generations of its ministers had been drinking from the springs of the Enlightenment. It was said that a Muslim would have been welcomed into many pulpits. Yet there was the remnant keeping the faith who were aided by old writers like Brakel.

Then in the 1830s an awakening took place in several countries in Europe, especially in Switzerland, a return to orthodoxy under Monod and the Haldane brothers, César Malan and Merle d'Aubigné. During that period Chalmers was pressing for reform in Scotland and there was a work of God going on there. In Holland God raised up half a dozen young ministers who first worked independently and then were drawn together to challenge the prevailing orthodoxy of the church. They reprinted the Church Order of Dordrecht; they encouraged their congregations to sing metrical psalms. They baptized babies brought to them by parents from neighbouring parishes where the ministers were modernists. The reaction was swift: ministers were deposed and sessions were forbidden to hold worship services.

The people so bereft of their preachers appealed to the king of Holland to whom they had given unqualified allegiance, but no help came from him. In November of 1834 the first congregation seceded from the state church. Their official Act of Secession was entitled the 'Act of Return' that is, what they desired was a return to confessional Christianity.

It gives me hope. The Church has been troubled before, by large scale apostacy. God has been faithful.

Could I also point you to Rev. Kim Riddelbarger's pointers on what it takes to plant a United Reformed Church congregation. (The URC started with a bunch of churches that bolted when the CRC started ordaining women. Scattered and few, but they appear solid. I think there might be, like, all of two in my state.)

We live in a suburb of a medium-sized city, and we can’t find one good, conservative church that preaches from the Bible and has a traditional service that is within reasonable driving distance (I’m talking less than an hour) from where we live. We are quite discouraged.

I feel for you.

77 posted on 03/29/2008 5:12:49 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("dispensationalism -- the eschatology of the Pharisees")
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To: Lee N. Field; Pining_4_TX
I botched the link in that post. The long excerpt was from The 2007 Evangelical Library Lecture. What I quoted was from Louis Berkhof's "back story".
78 posted on 03/29/2008 5:16:46 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("dispensationalism -- the eschatology of the Pharisees")
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To: Boagenes
Where does this leave a conservative Protestant who seeks a liturgical, confessional, orthodox church?

First off, though there are serious problems--as shown by this issue, from what I know, I don't think the majority of LCMS churches are in danger of going liberal, anytime soon anyway.

But, if the Lord is leading you away from LCMS, try some of the new Anglican denominations--which have broken away from the Episcopal Church, and are part of the worldwide Anglican Communion through strongly conservative orthodox Anglican provinces overseas (mostly Africa and South America). Also, for very liturgical Anglo-Catholic form, you have "continuing Anglican" churches.

You can count on any church in the USA with "Anglican" in its name will be "conservative Protestant...liturgical, confessional, and orthodox."

79 posted on 03/29/2008 6:58:16 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
I'll pray for your church too. It is highly upsetting, isn't it? Our LCMS church is in the same state, there is a great division right now between the traditional service members and the "modern" contemporary service members. It's terribly sad, and there are so many bad feelings just under the surface (and you don't have to do more than scratch that surface to find out).

I have become deeply concerned about the direction not just our church is going but the entire LCMS. It pains me greatly, words don't do it justice. I am torn as to whether to stay in the LCMS and find another church, or try and find another denomination altogether.

Kieschnick and Co. are the beginning of the end for the LCMS. There will be the removal of the commitment to Biblical inerrancy, syncretism, women pastors, women deacons, women elders, and same-sex blessing or "union" ceremonies in the next five to ten years, mark my words. I'll bet they even join the National Council of Churches.

80 posted on 03/29/2008 8:17:10 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: AnalogReigns
So any church with "Anglican" in the title is different than the Episcopalian Church in America that is headed up by that arch-heretic woman?

Don't the Anglicans still allow women priests?

81 posted on 03/29/2008 8:20:53 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Terriergal
I think if by ‘deacons’ they don’t mean ‘elders’ then women are OK but... too often the words are used interchangeably.

Not in Presbyterian/Reformed polity. They are distinct offices. In my particular Presbyterian Denomination, a congregation is not required to have deacons, however i don't know of any who have excercised this option.

82 posted on 03/29/2008 8:23:59 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Your list of 50 or so liberal churches brought a funny memory back to me, as the list included “Friends United Meeting” (Quakers).

As a teenager I visited a Friends United Meeting for a couple of weeks. We sat in a circle and people took turns praying out loud. This was in the 1970s and 80% percent of the prayers were anti-war statements about Vietnam.

Only once out of 40 prayers was Jesus Christ mentioned. I’d peek around the room and everyone wore a serious face as one after another prayed that the U.S. would stop the killing. I left and soon after joined ROTC.


83 posted on 03/29/2008 9:43:48 PM PDT by RCFlyer
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To: AnalogReigns
You can count on any church in the USA with "Anglican" in its name will be "conservative Protestant...liturgical, confessional, and orthodox."

I think you are very mistaken about this. From what I read here on FR, it's quite the opposite and they're on the list of those belonging to the NCC.

84 posted on 03/30/2008 5:10:35 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Boagenes
Kieschnick and Co. are the beginning of the end for the LCMS. There will be the removal of the commitment to Biblical inerrancy, syncretism, women pastors, women deacons, women elders, and same-sex blessing or "union" ceremonies in the next five to ten years, mark my words. I'll bet they even join the National Council of Churches.

So far, there's no hint of that and if they ever go that way, I'm outta here. I'm so grateful for those who are watchful.

Considering the uproar that was created simply by firing these two radio personalities, it seems they're going to have trouble going any farther.

85 posted on 03/30/2008 5:14:25 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Boagenes

(”I’m joining the Catholic Church.”) Well, that’s what we did. Enough of all of this (and 20 years of it, in a huge variety of denominations). We just yearned for something solid that never changed, no theology by committee, etc. Aaahhhh.


86 posted on 03/30/2008 1:45:02 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: Boagenes

The Pope is a great man, truly. You will find room for your orthodoxy and love for the Lord, indeed, in the Catholic Church.


87 posted on 03/30/2008 1:46:08 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: SoDak

Oh SoDak, surely you know the Lord well enough to be wary when you say, “I will never ....” He chortles when we say that, you know ....

We are ‘fundamentalist’ Prots come Home to the Catholic Church a few years ago. The/we new (Protestant) converts (from every and all denomination) are bringing their love of the Lord, heart-felt worship, knowledge of solid theology, love of tradition into the CC. It is a fresh wind that is purifying the excesses of Vat 2.

We are in Los Angeles, in a large church that is very orthodox, long confessional lines every Saturday with multiple priests officiating, Latin Mass every Sunday along with 5 or 6 other masses. There are many (Protestant and Muslim!) converts in our church.


88 posted on 03/30/2008 1:52:33 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: bboop
Just never mind that justification by faith thing.

(Thanks, but no thanks.)

89 posted on 03/30/2008 7:29:44 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("dispensationalism -- the eschatology of the Pharisees")
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To: Boagenes

Wow. I could have written your post myself. It exactly describes our church and my feelings as well. I have a hard time imagining any church other than LCMS but at the rate things are deteriorating, we may be forced elsewhere.

It hurts deeply. Our oldest granddaughter was confirmed last year but we have three others coming up. Among many great concerns, I fear our pastor will retire and there will not be another to properly teach confirmation class.

Thank you for your prayers. I will do the same for you. I wasn’t in the church during Seminex but I hear that it was similar. LCMS survived that but frankly I don’t know if this erosion will be stopped.

All we can do is pray, fight the good fight, and stay true to the Word. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide my future decisions but admittedly, I’m terribly anxious about it.


90 posted on 03/30/2008 10:02:09 PM PDT by Southflanknorthpawsis
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To: Pining_4_TX

***we left the PCA church in our area due to the increasingly liberal sermons***

Just goes to show you that you can’t trust the sign out front...


91 posted on 03/31/2008 5:36:38 AM PDT by Gamecock (Viva La Reformacion!)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Add Evangelical Covenant to the list of churches to avoid.


92 posted on 03/31/2008 10:52:25 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Boagenes

Good. Well the doctrinal beliefs are what is important. Behavior will flow naturally from those. Just be aware that a church can keep its orthodox doctrinal statement but not preach nor teach according to it. Make it a real crapshoot looking for a church these days!


93 posted on 03/31/2008 10:53:54 AM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Terriergal; All
Here's David Strand's response: An updated statement on ''Issues, Etc.''

Regards,

TS

94 posted on 03/31/2008 12:43:08 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.ToSetTheRecordStraight.com/www.swiftvets.com/www.wintersoldier.com-The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: The Shrew

yup I have seen that one. “USUALLY we don’t elaborate on these things but look we’ll be gracious and toss you a bone.” So condescending and such unbelieveable gall these people have. Now, Kieschnick has responded in the WSJ saying Hemingway falsified information, and so, Hemingway has all the ammo she needs to do provide the sources and blow him out of the water. I pray she will do it.


95 posted on 03/31/2008 2:02:50 PM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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To: Terriergal

Most certainly :>)


96 posted on 03/31/2008 3:06:30 PM PDT by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: Boagenes
Good afternoon.

Maybe you should join the Church of Boagenes. Isn't an individual's personal relationship with God more important that with any particular Church? I would think so, but what do I know.

Michael Frazier

97 posted on 03/31/2008 3:24:06 PM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender, no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Terriergal
Now, Kieschnick has responded in the WSJ saying Hemingway falsified information,

Do you have a link? My search at WSJ.com turned up only, Radio Silence on Kieschnick.

Regards,

TS

98 posted on 03/31/2008 3:35:34 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.ToSetTheRecordStraight.com/www.swiftvets.com/www.wintersoldier.com-The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: brazzaville

My own relationship with Christ isn’t the issue, it’s choosing a place for public worship with fellow Christians. I cannot worship or fellowship with those are part of a denomination I consider in error or outright apostasy. Paul warns us about that one.


99 posted on 03/31/2008 4:21:04 PM PDT by Boagenes
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To: The Shrew

http://tailrank.com/5579417/Pres-Kieschnick-responds-to-WSJ-Article

http://bringbackissues.blogspot.com/2008/03/pres-kieschnick-responds-to-wsj-article.html


100 posted on 04/02/2008 2:01:03 PM PDT by Terriergal ("I am ashamed that women are so simple To offer war where they should kneel for peace," Shakespeare)
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