Posted on 04/18/2008 7:34:25 PM PDT by Chief Engineer
C.'s Attorney General Wally Oppal has confirmed that some of the 416 children taken by authorities from a polygamist compound in Texas, are Canadian.
Oppal said officials in Ottawa gave him the news.
His statement came after Angie Voss, of Texas child protection services, said during a custody hearing in Texas on Friday that some of the children we from Canada, though she gave no details about how many were there, or how old they were.
The large group of children were seized from the compound after allegations of sexual and physical abuse were made, including forcing underage girls to marry men several times their age.
Oppal told The Canadian Press he had been alerted that some Canadians were involved. He said government officials would be getting involved, though it wasn't clear what their role would be.
Oppal said officials gave him the news because there is also a polygamist compound in Bountiful, B.C., and members have close ties to their American counterparts.
"This has been an issue for quite some time in that it has been said that at Bountiful there are said to be some Americans there as well," Oppal said.
"It sort of adds another dimension to the problem here. That is, that people move in and out of these communities and it's sometimes difficult to find out who's where and what."
Oppal said the call from Ottawa was "giving us a heads up because they know that we're involved in that same issue here."
Unprecedented ruling
In an unprecedented ruling, the judge in the case has ordered that all children in the case will remain in state custody.
The court heard that at least five of the children who are under 18 already have had children of their own.
The children were taken from an Eldorado, Texas compound which belonged to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The children, most of whom are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. About 130 are under 4 years old, Voss said.
Voss said that the children are taught "...no age too young to be married."
She added that there is "...a culture of young girls being pregnant by older men."
The court has heard that the girls would have little ability to say no.
Psychiatrist Bruce Perry said a child raised to be absolutely obedient would have, "the independent thinking of a much younger child."
Polygamous marriage is a central tenet for members of the religious sect.
The sect is led by their prophet, Warren Jeffs. Formerly on the FBI's most wanted list, the leader has been convicted and jailed for being an accomplice of rape by forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old cousin.
He is now awaiting trial on other charges in Arizona. The sect came to West Texas in 2003, moving from its traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Voss said the ranch was considered a special place, the sect's Zion.
Authorities raided the 1,700 acre raid after a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl on the ranch. The girls said she was beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.
The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.
I think you, ican’tbelieveit, are seeing exactly what you want to see, evidence to the contrary be d*mned. You’re exactly the DU-ers who see a plot behind every statement, action or even inaction by the Bush admin (and yes, there are problems, but not the ones they see). This is not the conservative way, and frankly, what you and some of the others are advocating has nothing to do with the form of government we call a Republic, but everything to do with anarchy (the total lack of any government controls).
I’m sorry, but I find it impossible to take you seriously.
There were valid warrants. This was not unchecked.
But of course, a Great Constitutional Law Expert like you probably knows far better than any actual real attorneys, such as the lawyers and judges who've already commented on this. (roll eyes)
Protect these women, protect these children within that scope.
Evangelize these women, convert them. Whatever it takes. But we cannot stand by while the government takes unchecked actions that violate our rights as citizens, adults and children alike, in the name of protecting the children.
How? How do you get to them?
...and to protect my rights as a free citizen. I do not expect the government to protect me from every little thing out there, that is my job.
If you expect the government to protect your rights as a free citizens, then the citizen who is trampling your rights is going to have to have HIS rights trampled. Not everyone can have the absolute right to do as he or she wants. When that happens, someones rights are trampled.
The government's actions are not going unchecked. They got warrants, they did it according to legal protocol. They didn't SWAT team style bust down the door, shoot the dog, trash the house, rough up the occupants, and arrest them with no evidence, like they've done on all these mistaken drug busts we keep hearing about.
They've come under tremendous scrutiny for this. And besides, again, the Constitution limits the FEDERAL government and delegates its powers. Every thing else is in the hands of the states.
It didn't act outside normal boundries. They acted with more responsibility that CPS usually does in anonymous hotline tips child abuse reports. And besides, that's all it ever takes, be it one child or 400.
If the cult didn't trade children between parents like trading cards, the children WOULD know who their mothers are. Living in a group setting does not automatically mean that the kids don't know who their mothers are.
I didn't say I was shocked by that and I'm not, sad to say. With everything else I've heard about the cult, this DOESN'T surprise me.
You can't go giving a child to an adult who may not be their parent.
They've got these kids now, right or wrong, and now they have to do something with them. But what they CAN'T do is hand them over to any old adult who comes along and lays claim to them. They do have the right to be united with their biological family and determining that is going to take time.
I don’t care if you take me seriously. I find your witchhunt mentality, at all costs approach, frightening.
That is the problem I have now... or wrong... Have to stop the or wrong. That is the whole point of our country is to protect us from the wrongs of the government.
An faked anonymous tip to take over 400+ children not even addressed in the fake anonymous tip is WRONG, outside of the limitations we have set on our government.
Metmom, if you were as well educated on this situation as you claim, you would know, from testimony, that these women have interaction with the external world. They are not as isolated as you are making them out to believe. Go read a bit more. Some of these women are college educated, they chose to return. It was their choice, not forced.
The only time I want the government to protect my rights as a free citizen is if a crime is commited against me, then I want the government to fufill their requirement to provide a judicial system. Or if I have committed a crime, I want the government to treat me as innocent until they prove me guilty. Not the other way, guilty and I have to give up my livelihood to prove my innocence.
But, for instance, if you have rights to privacy in your home and you like playing your music all day and it upsets me, guess what, I have the right to move. I don’t have to stay there and take it. When I involved the government in petty squabbles like that, I encourage them to take rights from me which they are more than willing to do (reference smoking bans, etc.).
Now, when it comes to the actions at this compound, the limitations and the scope should have been for the child in question and perpetrator in question. Unless they had evidence for each additional child, they had no right to take them all.
I know it feels good to be protecting the children, but we have to still protect ourselves from an overreaching government.
Metmom, if you were as well educated on this situation as you claim, you would know, from testimony, that these women have interaction with the external world. They are not as isolated as you are making them out to believe. Go read a bit more. Some of these women are college educated, they chose to return. It was their choice, not forced.
The only time I want the government to protect my rights as a free citizen is if a crime is commited against me, then I want the government to fufill their requirement to provide a judicial system. Or if I have committed a crime, I want the government to treat me as innocent until they prove me guilty. Not the other way, guilty and I have to give up my livelihood to prove my innocence.
But, for instance, if you have rights to privacy in your home and you like playing your music all day and it upsets me, guess what, I have the right to move. I don’t have to stay there and take it. When I involved the government in petty squabbles like that, I encourage them to take rights from me which they are more than willing to do (reference smoking bans, etc.).
Now, when it comes to the actions at this compound, the limitations and the scope should have been for the child in question and perpetrator in question. Unless they had evidence for each additional child, they had no right to take them all.
I know it feels good to be protecting the children, but we have to still protect ourselves from an overreaching government.
MizSterious, again, you are suffering tunnel vision. Gosh, evidence of a government entity overreaching in recent history: Duke LaCrosse players being accused of rape. They had valid warrants too.
We spend a lot of effort in this country dealing with the pregnant 13 year old issue ~ and over there fighting us on the issue is the Chamber of Commerce ~ they want to bring in even more of ‘em from Latin America.
“So you favor just returning them to any old adult?”
Don’t you think the state had an obligation to make that determination before rounding them up like a herd of cattle?
If we sit back to allow the state to do this to these people, then we shall have no complaint when they come for the rest of us and our children.
I have my doubts the state is testing their dna to determine their mothers. If the state plans to place them in foster care, what does it matter who their mothers are? If the state has no evidence against any of them, and plans to return them, then why can’t it merely drop them off just like it herded them up? I don’t doubt this religious group can sort them all out to be just as it was before the state came in like a bunch of drunken cowpokes on a cattle drive.
Wow, a real live cult defender.
Sure, that's the ticket, just hand them back, en masse. Who cares who the parents are? Who cares what will happen to them? Who cares if the cult leaders treat them like property and breed them like dogs and rob them of their Constitutional rights. Just so long as we can keep ours; the heck with them.
Someone has to make the sacrifice to (allegedly) protect my Constitutional rights; it might as well be them. Better them than me.
I certainly agree re: go after the men. They are far more culpable.
But, to prove the crimes, we need to know family relationships, and ages of the victims. Apparently the women and children aren’t cooperating with that information, so I think they need some time to do some DNA testing and whatever testing they can do to determine peoples’ approximate age.
Well said, metmon.
“OTH, is it really any business of ours who their moms are?”
Yes, because if kids are being taken from their mothers and shuffled about like cattle, prepped for a lifetime of sexual slavery, it is very important to know who the legally responsible parties are. In this case, their parents.
If I had been raised that way, as you say, I may be quite a devoted follower. I harbor no animosity towards those folks. However, I would like to see the kids delivered from the apparent goal of lifetime sexual slavery.
“I figure the children know who their parents are and the parents know who their children are.”
Not according to many adults who have left or been kicked out. Apparently many kids are sent off at birth, and there are hundreds of them, and many children do not know who their mom is, at the least. I don’t know, they may know who their dad is.
“By law, young teens can marry with parental consent.” By law, they have to be 16. Reports coming out of this mess report girls as young as 13 having babies, and girls as young as 12 being pregnant. Reports from adults who have left/been kicked out of FLDS groups report that some girls are married off at the age of 8 or 9.
“If a teen is married with parental consent, does the conuptual constitute rape?” No. Not if the young lady is 16.
“The question is, does the state have the right to make this determination rather than the parents?”
That is the million dollar question. At what point does the state have the right to interfere with beliefs passed from parent to child? As to BELIEFS, I say never. As to PRACTICES (child abuse, rape, statutory rape, child neglect and abandonment (that’s the boys))I say the state is obligated.
If a man wants to teach about the wonders of polygamy to his kids, and play at it himself with adult women, I say the state doesn’t get involved, except of course if there is tax or welfare fraud.
If that man starts marrying girls under 16, and having sex with the same, or if there is severe physical abuse, i.e., broken ribs, or severe neglect, i.e., the throwing out of the most of the young boys, enter the state, and welcome.
There are limits on a state’s power. There are also limits on an individual man’s power.
I take your reply to me to mean that you have no proof that these children will be abused in foster care, so instead you change the subject. Thanks for your reply.
susie
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.