Texas Polygamy Case Based on a Lie

LiveScience.com ^ | Thu May 22, 5:50 PM ET | Benjamin Radford

[LeGrande]

"The raid ­- resulting in the largest child custody case in American history - was based on a lie."

"Police traced the calls to 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman named Rozita Swinton. Swinton had earlier been arrested for making a false report, and accused of posing as "Jennifer," 16, who called 911 to report that her father had locked her in a basement for days. Swinton may also have posed as thirteen-year-old Dana Anderson, who was being sexually abused by her pastor and raped by her father. There is no evidence that Sarah, Jennifer, or Dana exist. Swinton remains a "person of interest" in the case, but has not been charged in connection to the raid. "

[Tennessee Nana]

the risk that a particular child could end up using drugs 12 years from now exists all across our society.
______________________________________________

Many of the boys who are tossed out of their homes at 12, 13, 14, end up on drugs...

Lots die...the commit suicide...

They cant read because they did not get proper schooling...they worked all day instead...

They cant get a job...too young...no education...

They hav e no ID so they cant go to school etc...

That could be the future for this boy also...

Even boys from the “prophets” own family get tossed out...

They are taught that they are going to Hell regardless what they do...

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

I am an atheist

Wow! An Atheist Conservative! Talk about an oxymoron!

[Repeal The 17th]

“Wow! An Atheist Conservative! Talk about an oxymoron!”

---

Pardon my intrusion into your conversation.
But I just can’t help but wonder
if I either need your permission or your blessing
or if I need to claim belief in your particular religion
before I can call myself a political conservative?

The correct answer to the question is, “oh, hail no.”

[freeandfreezing]

Hysterical demands for evidence from the FLDS apologists on this thread aside, Texas really is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Right?

Not really. The photos are not relevant evidence to any of the custody cases. As another poster has noted, the victim in the photographs is now an adult woman and apparently is no longer an FLDS member. And the adult male perpetrator in the photo is presently incarcerated.

I haven't seen many apologists for FLDS on this thread, instead I have seen people concerned about the State of Texas' mishandling of this case. But the really important criticism of the lack of evidence came from the people who matter the most - the judges in Texas who reviewed the actions of Texas CPS and the lower court. Their opinion sets forth the best available assessment of the evidence that CPS has presented.

[Awestruck]

hey “bub”, have you read the part where the state found that not one family was on welfare.. lets try to stay current, shall we? Unless you just want to keep beating a dead horse.

[Awestruck]

and that has what to do with this particular case?

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Their opinion sets forth the best available assessment of the evidence that CPS has presented.

In the meantime:

Criminal investigation of polygamous sect unimpeded by court wrangling

[LeGrande]

Then you will be as relieved as i was to learn that the women were offered a place an shelters for abused women and many accepted the offer...

Was that a condition to be with their children? LOL the CPS has said that none of the women can live a the compound if they want to be with their children.

I am skeptical.

I’m sure with proper counseli ng, in time the women will recover and start to live as normal women ...

Do you really think that the CPS will win the appeal?

[LeGrande]

Wow! An Atheist Conservative! Talk about an oxymoron!

There are lots of us :)

[Godzilla]

The fact that Smith was a polygamist is one not disputed by reputable mormon authorities any more. - You find yourself arguing against those you feign to defend. Offspring are not necessary to prove that adultery took place (and the DNA evidence is not finalized yet either). There are numerous biographies by these other wives that confirm that their marriage with smith was less than just 'spiritual'. I prefer the 'wives' first hand account over your overly inflated bluster - they engaged in the pillow talk, not you. Your one argument defense shows your shallowness on the subject.

With all you boasting, civil authorities are have been shown to be within their authorized power to hold individuals who do not provide adequate documentation of who they are. Have all the legal arguments been spoken - no - so you are premature in sentencing the CPS to death. To even make the claim that the CPS agent will face the death penalty - is incredibly absurd assertion. Stick to jokes and leave law to the professionals.

And spare us the crybaby whine to the admin mod. If posting pictures to you to document FLDS practices, for minor children to be forced into these 'marriages', which has already been proven illegal, then you are free to leave the thread. You have been defending exactly what was pictured. Who ever hit the abuse button was correct, after reviewing you posts prior to this. So are you going to pound me with personal insults too. I join with the others and laugh at you, for your method of argument is that of one who cannot defend their position otherwise.

[LeGrande]

What beating was that? Legrande just seemed to be getting more and more bizarre in his statements (something about the CPS being child kidnappers who should be executed is where I left off).

As usual running dog is lying, it was comments on the CPS's kidnapping of adult women. And that the federal penalty for kidnapping under the color of law can be the death penalty.

You know Legrande, there is a point where people are so far off this planet that responding to them is counterproductive. You’ve made some pretty darn strange statements - for example, that police should wait until after someone kills their victim to intervene because Law Enforcement has no obligation to protect anyone.

Missed the SCOTUS decision did you? Look it up, ignorance is no excuse. You really don't have any kind of legal background or knowledge at all, do you? That was a rhetorical question.

Your continual defense of the FLDS while claiming otherwise also fits this category. The claim that Joseph Smith had no other wives flies in the face of reality.

Just more lies as usual. I do not defend the FLDS and you can't prove that JS was polygamous.

The claim that I am a sexual pervert because I reposted a picture of Warren Jeffs kissing a 13 year old - even though that picture is all over the internet.

No, you are a sexual deviant because of the comment that you made when you posted to the picture. Implying that we could get our kicks looking at a 12 year old girls proves that you are one sick pervert.

And the hysterical claims that we are a Cabal - though clearly a Mormon cabal also exists.

Could syphilis cause that kind of reasoning?

At some point above, you lost all credibility, not only to myself but to anyone following this discourse. All I’m doing is slowly prying out the real you for all to see, a very vindictive name caller who though an atheist pines for the good old days snuggling at the feet of Hugh Nibley.

You really, really should seek counseling.

I suspect you took the name Legrande from Legrande Richards? Am I correct??

No, no connection at all. I am a climber.

[Tennessee Nana]

Was that a condition to be with their children?
__________________________________________

No that was an offer by concerned people who work with abused women and recognized he long term effects on the women from the compound...

It took years for these women to get that way and it takes a long time for them to recover from their “stinkin thinkin”

(that merely means that their thinking is screwy and they dont recognize or acknowledge normalcy..)

No marks against the women...they are victims too...

But unless they realize that they are being abused and want help, they wont help their children or want to protect them...

These women suffer from a form of Sto9ckholm syndrome where they will protect their abusers...

Just like they are still controlled by Warren Jeffs...

the order to KEEP SWEET.. means to shut up and dont tell what is really going on..

Lie for him and pretend everything is hunky dory...

There are more signs in these women of the trauma of abuse than you can shake a stick at...

Over the weeks I’ve talked to some professional friends of mine about this case...

These women have to WANT to be helped...

If they all go back to the compound then Warren Jeffs and the olther abusers will have won and the hold on thesze women will be even greater..

I heard one say on a video..”there are no GOOD men” the answer to a question put to her was out of context..

What did that mean ????

Nobody asked and she didnt explain...

There are good men everywhere...I wonder if she ever looked..

FR is full of good men...

And there are many in TX, AZ and I guess in UT too..

Did she mean that she thought all men were evil ;like the ones in the comp[ound ????

Or the compound ones were kings and she one of several queens to one of them...

And all the men outside the compound were not “good”

That would be from brain washing ...

These women are not allowed to be free and have a thought of their own...

They dont even know how to smile naturally...

[LeGrande]

The fact that Smith was a polygamist is one not disputed by reputable mormon authorities any more. - You find yourself arguing against those you feign to defend. Offspring are not necessary to prove that adultery took place (and the DNA evidence is not finalized yet either). There are numerous biographies by these other wives that confirm that their marriage with smith was less than just 'spiritual'. I prefer the 'wives' first hand account over your overly inflated bluster - they engaged in the pillow talk, not you. Your one argument defense shows your shallowness on the subject.

The fact remains that you can't demonstrate either with contemporaneous evidence or DNA that JS was polygamous. You and I have already gone the rounds on this.

With all you boasting, civil authorities are have been shown to be within their authorized power to hold individuals who do not provide adequate documentation of who they are. Have all the legal arguments been spoken - no - so you are premature in sentencing the CPS to death. To even make the claim that the CPS agent will face the death penalty - is incredibly absurd assertion. Stick to jokes and leave law to the professionals.

The 27 year old women provided both a DL and BC. That is adequate documentation. The CPS officials broke the law.

And spare us the crybaby whine to the admin mod. If posting pictures to you to document FLDS practices, for minor children to be forced into these 'marriages', which has already been proven illegal, then you are free to leave the thread.

I didn't run to the admin mod. Virginia Ridgerunner did. I prefer that the mods stay out of this. You really need to check your facts before you start spouting off and you can certainly leave the thread too.

You have been defending exactly what was pictured. Who ever hit the abuse button was correct, after reviewing you posts prior to this. So are you going to pound me with personal insults too.

I have not been defending the FLDS beliefs or practices. Your stating that I have been makes you one sick liar. Since you insulted me personally, I definitely will try to insult you if it is possible.

I join with the others and laugh at you, for your method of argument is that of one who cannot defend their position otherwise.

LOL I am proud to be hated by your cabal comrades.

[metmom]

Why do you think that for over one hundred years a group of FLDS women have chosen to live the lifestyle that they do, teaching their daughters and sons the beliefs (albeit unusual) of their religion?

Probably because they're been threatened with damnation and hellfire if they didn't.

Some choice.

[metmom]

What beating was that? Legrande just seemed to be getting more and more bizarre in his statements (something about the CPS being child kidnappers who should be executed is where I left off).

So then, lg, what should child rapists get? After all, rape is a far worse crime against children than kidnapping, isn't it?

[JRochelle]

Who is the pervert that accused others of getting their kicks by looking at pictures of 12 year old girls kissing grown men? FastCoyote.

LOL

Who is the one lashing out now that there is undeniable evidence that the FLDS adults are nothing but a bunch of sexual deviants and their female enablers?

[metmom]

Of course, I would love to see everyone rescued from that group, adults too. Don't you want the adults rescued?

If you would like to see them rescued, then why would you object to it when it really did happen? Who would you propose rescues them, then?

These children were rescued and you're calling the rescuers kidnappers and clearly implying that the death penalty should be administered to them; that they should be put to death for their actions, as in posts 217 and 291.

The women were given the opportunity to leave with the children. Some did, some went back. Would you rescue adult women against their will?

[P-Marlowe]

Do you have any evidence that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? If you do I am sure that FastCoyote, colorcountry and many other members of your cabal would love to see it because I have pounded them into submission on that particular little topic.

Pardon me, but who the heck are you? Are you a Mormon and are you claiming that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist?

What kind of evidence would convince you? How about a revelation from God commanding Joseph Smith to enter into polygamy and commanding his wife to go along with it or be destroyed? Would that be sufficient? Sheesh!

Did you see the beating that I gave FastCoyote, because he posted that picture to me? Do you want the same?

I musta missed that one. Maybe you could post a link?

_Arrogance.

[DannyTN]

"Joseph Smith clearly introduced polygamy, but..

So now you expect me to believe that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy but didn't practice it himself, despite the LDS historians claiming otherwise and the numerous accounts of the marriages?

Emma ran some of his wives out of the house. So Smith may not practiced polygamy as much as he would have liked, but it sounds like he was practicing it, which is why Emma ran them out.

DNA testing doesn't prove Smith wasn't a polygamist, it may just prove that he wasn't a very fertile polygamist.

What little I've read indicates that only 5 of the 12 children believed to be Smith's have been DNA tested. And the testing only works on male children. So the only thing DNA testing has proved so far is that 5 males that were thought to be his, aren't.

[Diamond]

This case is hell to try to manage. The judges who think that there is no endangerment lack common sense. I feel for the people who finally tried to rescue these kids with the history of Waco in their minds--likely authorities have been trying to find an angle for years.

No, the Texas CPS lacks common sense. The case is hell to manage because a muscle flexing CPS full of hubris decided to conduct a massive, overreaching, ill-advised raid. They calculated (correctly) that the trial court would rubber stamp whatever they wanted to do, and in so doing they needlessly inflicted absolutely devastating separation trauma on hundreds of pre-teen children. They decided to take THE MOST DRASTIC ACTION available to them under the law, removal of children from a household, even though there were less traumatic alternatives prescribed by the law (such as removing the men from the ranch) and even though they had to know that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to meet their burden of proof for each child taken.

The CPS knows the law backwards and forwards. This is their business. To chalk this botched operation up to incompetence is to interpret their actions charitably. To remove a child from a household they need to provide evidence of three things:

(1) there was a danger to the physical health or safety of the child which was caused by an act or failure to act of the person entitled to possession and for the child to remain in the home is contrary to the welfare of the child;

(2) the urgent need for protection required the immediate removal of the child and reasonable efforts, consistent with the circumstances and providing for the safety of the child, were made to eliminate or prevent the child's removal; and

(3) reasonable efforts have been made to enable the child to return home, but there is a substantial risk of a continuing danger if the child is returned home.

The CPS knew that they were required by the law to provide evidence at a full adversary hearing within 14 days of taking each child that would convince a reasonable prudent person by a preponderance of the evidence of all three elements of the statute. The CPS not only did not provide evidence for each child of all three elements, they admit that that they did not, and instead tried to shift their own burden of proof onto the parents. Each of the custody determination orders that the trial court issued were required by the law to show evidence of each of the 3 elements for each and every child taken. Those custody determination orders that resulted from that cattle call judicial stampede that was passed off as a full adversary hearing for each individual child contained, as was to be expected, zero evidence pertaining to each and every child that supported the orders that were issued by the court. It was an impossible task, and the blame for that situation rests entirely on the reprehensible incompetence and arrogance of the CPS and a gutless CYA judge. The CPS caused the judicial stampede in the first place, and their excuses for the lack of evidence and their attempts to shift the burden of proof are like a person who kills his parents complaining that he is an orphan.

This outcome was entirely predictable, assuming that the law would be actually be followed. I didn't know that it would be. I said these things here prior to appellate ruling , but I was cynical that they would actually take the requirements of the Statute seriously. The Appellate Court did. The CPS will lose at the Supreme Court level, too , if they go through with an appeal. All they're trying to do now is buy time for THEMSELVES. As far as they're concerned, to hell with the hundreds of young children that they have traumatized and continue to traumatize for no reason.

Not only have they shown clinical indifference to the absolutely devastating effect that separation trauma is known to have on young children, they may have also botched the legitimate rescues of those underage girls who have actually been sexually assaulted and/or raped by the cult leaders. Deciding on such a massive raid necessarily limited the resources that they would be able to devote to those case where they might have actually proved the abuse. Monkeys have more judgment than these morons displayed.

And while I'm at it, collectively attributing to the men on this forum an ulterior motive of getting some sort of perverse erotic charge out of this spectacle is totally uncalled for and is itself perverse. We are as horrified at the massive force combined with massive incompetence and arrogance of a rampaging, out-of-control State bureaucracy that is supposed to exist for the protection of children as we are the sex crimes and abuses committed by these cultists. That sort of invective is a disservice to this forum, and it is an insult to many decent American citizens here who prefer to see the guilty punished, not the innocent.

We don't like assignation of collective guilt, here, OR in a courtroom.

FAMILY COURT - TEXAS STYLE

Cordially,