Replies

DU: Please explain to me why men need to settle Theological disputes and not God.

Jibaholic: Because otherwise wolves in sheeps' clothing will lead people astray. That is what Paul fought against.

Paul was defending his church against threats from the inside, anti's on the other hand attack my church from the outside.

To me you are an ill disguised wolf.

DU: Please explain to me how men, without God's assistance settle these disputes.

Jibaholic: Of course we need God to be in control. It is the internal witness of the Holy Spirit that equips believers to fight against heresies.

Perhaps then you are not aware that I am following the Holy Ghost, it is what lead me to be a Mormon. You should read my testimony, please also understand the I am not attacking anyone else's religion, merely offering to share my own faith and defending against attacks on my own. If I were to attack, even under the strictures of this forum, i would have many more enemies here and create much more of a commotion, I know where too many of the "bodies are buried" for too many religions.

DU: Last question is someone who believes in Jesus, but has a different understanding than you do "passing themselves off" or do they really believe?

Jibaholic: They believe in something that is false - that does not come from God.

Yes, those who follow the Nicene Creed are indeed following something that is not from God. The "Creed" was created by a council of men presided over by a sun worshiping emperor who wanted to make Christianity more palatable to his people, please don't believe me on this, Go and read the account in the Catholic encyclopedia on line

Since that is too much for some, here is an excerpt from my page:

Mormons believe that one of the places that we can most easily see the apostasy happening is the first council at Nicea which was convened to reconcile the Arian controversy So Constantine could use this new "Christian" religion to unify his fractured Roman Empire The Trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the first council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind. This was his expressed purpose according to records he had kept of the event.

Finally Constantine, having conquered Licinius and become sole emperor, concerned himself with the re-establishment of religious peace as well as of civil order. He addressed letters to St. Alexander and to Arius depreciating these heated controversies regarding questions of no practical importance, and advising the adversaries to agree without delay.

And

The Council was opened by Constantine with the greatest solemnity. The emperor waited until all the bishops had taken their seats before making his entry. He was clad in gold and covered with precious stones in the fashion of an Oriental sovereign. A chair of gold had been made ready for him, and when he had taken his place the bishops seated themselves. After he had been addressed in a hurried allocution, the emperor made an address in Latin, expressing his will that religious peace should be re-established.

And

The emperor began by making the bishops understand that they had a greater and better business in hand than personal quarrels and interminable recriminations.

Lastly

St. Athanasius assures us that the activities of the Council were nowise hampered by Constantine's presence.

Now let's put all this in the context of the day. Constantine had just finally put down the other military leaders of a fractured empire. In spite of Christianity being illegal, it had grown in popularity (or maybe even because it was illegal) Constantine sends letters to these bishops (who are under a death sentence just for being Christians) and invites them to a conference, moreover, he puts "Public transportation" at their disposal to get to the conference with. (Public transportation means military horses and Chariots, there was no bus)

Now on top of all this he tells them that one of the topics of the conference will be making the Catholic church the sate church of Rome.

Carrot and Stick are now clearly (I hope) visible to all who read this.

The bishops meet and Constantine tells them to come to a consensus on the nature of God (the Arian Controversy) and when they do, he makes them the state church. However, there are a few conditions, he wants a definition of God that everyone can accept, and thus we have the Greek religions influence in to the Nicene Creed.

Mormons believe that this is the single biggest step into apostasy that can be documented as happening at an exact point in time.

Jibaholic: Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will go to heaven.

That is precisely whey I fear so much for those who fight against God's church on these forums.

Just a quote to ponder: "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson.

That is precisely whey I fear so much for those who fight against God's church on these forums.

...Delphi, - you forgot the barf alert

That is precisely whey I fear so much for those who fight against God's church on these forums.

Hmmm....so what are all the other Churches in this country and throughout the Christian world if they are not God's church, as you imply here? Just curious.

Just a quote to ponder: "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson. [DU]

So, now T.J. is your latest spiritual giant, Delf? Tell, you what...if you're goin' to use your quote above everytime you want to continue the grand Mormon tradition of labeling us apostates (one & all), corrupt (one & all), and abominable (one creed & all)...then why don't you also keep the following T.J. quote handy as well. Then, everytime you meet a theist (vs. the polytheists that Mormons are), you can just whack them o'er the head with T.J.:

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson

Jibaholic -

You will soon see that DU is very selective when ever he cites something. Especially when he takes liberty with history. Take the following for instance:

Constantine, who called the first council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind. This was his expressed purpose according to records he had kept of the event.

If you follow his link you will find the following:

"The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. .......In order to expedite the assembling of the Council, the emperor placed at the disposal of the bishops the public conveyances and posts of the empire; moreover, while the Council lasted he provided abundantly for the maintenance of the members. "

Try as one may, one will not see the term - bribed or threat used in any variant form. DUs continues the spin as follows:

In spite of Christianity being illegal, it had grown in popularity (or maybe even because it was illegal) Constantine sends letters to these bishops (who are under a death sentence just for being Christians) and invites them to a conference,

Is there truth in this statement? Not in the least. Following his coming to power, Christianity was legalized by the Edict of Milan, early in 313 - that is twelve (12) years before the Nicean conference. This is a an example of typical mormon amateur apologetics who expects that his statements will go unchallenged. Next he will try to present a little truth.

However, there are a few conditions, he wants a definition of God that everyone can accept, and thus we have the Greek religions influence in to the Nicene Creed.

Correct, Constantine wanted the strife to stop. But is this hellenistic influence? Arianism was at its core Platoism. The Arian conception of Christ as neither truly God nor truly man but an ontological in-between. Platonism, in its various forms, postulated the existence of such a mediator because it could not accept a direct contact or union between the Transcendent Divine Reality and Creation. It was this intermediate that Arius developed his heresy upon. Jehovah's witnesses carry this heresy to its conclusion - a kindred spirit for DU.

But now for the rest of the story. DU would have you believe that Constantine instituted the Trinity doctrine into the church. History reveals that the opposite is true. Arius’ friend Eusibius was a friend of Constantine, Emperor of Rome. He persuaded Constantine defend Arius. Constantine was baptized as an Arian. The Arians were anti-Trinitarians. The change in the church was not as the result of the Council of Nicaea. At the council, the historic position of the church was affirmed and written into a creed. It was after this council that historic Christianity was exiled and replaced with the Arian heresy.

Also, the Nicean Creed that breeds such bile from DU wasn't formulated in its current form until Council of Constantinople (381) - some 56 years later. So jibaholic, and any other lurker present, it is clear that the history has been misrepresented by DU.

Paul was defending his church against threats from the inside, anti's on the other hand attack my church from the outside.

WRONG!

You know FULL well that MANY in these threads are STILL on the rolls of the church, or, have jumped thru many hoops to get OUT of it's clutches.

To infer that ALL folks who have seen the Light are OUTSIDE, therefore UNKNOWLEDGEABLE is, on it's face, a lie.

That is precisely whey I fear so much for those who fight against God's church on these forums.

The LDS that the cult is "God's church" is tragic and laughable at the same time.

Do you really, really believe that God would have allowed His church to go rudderless for millennium until the town teller of tall tales Joe Smith put stones in his hat, gave conflicting testimony, and "translated" golden plates in "Reformed Egyptian?" (which despite a Herculean effort remains a fictitious fantasy?);

You need to turn that mirror around. Not the black paper side - you need to look right into it, with your soul.

I believe there isn't much time left bud. I think we are near the end. Do you want to bank your eternity on a "church" that has rewritten its scripture when inconsistencies have been found?

Do you want to tie your eternal destiny to a man who stuck his male member into the wives of men who followed him?

My God, please think about what you are doing.

The End of Days will come someday, perhaps soon, perhaps not, but are you willing to take that chance?

Hell is real.

Seek Christ, and Him only. Read the Gospel, and give your heart to Him.

Take care DU. I hope to see you in the dwelling places of Heaven, and we will hug.

Sky