Posted on 04/18/2009 2:54:42 AM PDT by Scanian
As long as the ethanol doesn't evaporate and cause more smog. As long as the ethanol doesn't absorb too much water.
40 years ago I couldn’t drive in Detroit without my asthma going crazy. Now the air there is nearly as clean as here in outstate MI.
It's amazing how much cleaner the new engine technology has become.
If gas was as high as diesel, like years ago
Is this your math proof?
the 50 cents or more per gallon difference added on the approximate 250 billion gallons pump gas
Approximate? How about some links with real numbers?
would add 125 billion to come out of consumers pockets. Fair trade for a tax credit of 5 billion.
What does the price of diesel have to do with the bad deal we get with ethanol?
Ethanol is one little factor that helps..
Helps raise prices. Helps cut MPG.
You say it raised prices. When gas was 4 bucks ethanol
was less than 3, and its availability and blending
it in, kept gas price from being as high as diesel,
which at the time was a dollar more.You want links
look at the signs outside the stations, how can anyone
forget the huge prices listed. Go look at
CBOT and other business sites for info.
Since I get gas with ethanol I don’t have to use drygas
in the winter. Nothing is supposed to evaporate as
long as it is capped. And it isn’t a carcinogin like
the other oxygenators that were used.The stations here that don’t have 10% blend give us more trouble with water
problems than those that have 10% blend ethanol.
The price level of Diesel is what gas would be without
the extra supply of ethanol. That’s what I am relating
to. My V8s don’t loose any milage with 10% ethanol,
as that raises the octane, and allows the computor
to advance timing so that the whole mixture burns cleaner
with out spark knock. And with the whole mixture burning
cleaner(extra oxygen supplied by ethanol) little more
power and an extra mile per gal in 3 of my V8s.
We have people saying there was shortages of corn,
but there was always corn, it was just high priced
due to speculators, who by the way own the damn
companies that are the Grocers Alliance feeding this
ethanol bashing crap to everyone.Ed
You bet.
When gas was 4 bucks ethanol was less than 3,
When was that? You have any charts?
and its availability and blending it in, kept gas price from being as high as diesel
Any proof for that claim? How much gas was used to make all that ethanol? Maybe if that gas was used for autos, the price would have been even lower?
Go look at CBOT and other business sites for info.
Good idea. Ethanol is $1.60 and RBOB gas is $1.50.
And you get lower MPG with ethanol.
Nothing is supposed to evaporate as long as it is capped.
And we know all cars have good seals on their gas tanks.
And it isn’t a carcinogin like the other oxygenators that were used.
The only thing worse than ethanol is MTBE.
The price level of Diesel is what gas would be without the extra supply of ethanol.
Now how can you prove that?
We have people saying there was shortages of corn, but there was always corn, it was just high priced due to speculators,
High priced due to government mandates turning it into fuel.
So the only thing that evaporates out of tanks with
“bad seals” is ethanol???????????Silly.
If you can find out what gas and ethanol is now you
can find out what it was when gas was 4 bucks.
Granted ethanol is slightly cheaper than no-tax
price of gas, right now, but that is because the plants
are still working with corn bought at twice the price
they have stored. When new corn come in this year
at have of the high price then ethanol will be down
more, maybe a buck. They are not going to shut the
plants down if it is possible to run them in anyway as
the million of lbs of high protein feed are still needed
for help in raising our meat.
And another point the milk price to farmers is been
halved which means the farmer will milk less, ship more
corn into markets, maybe depressing prices more(don’t
hurt me), and will depress all farm prices.
But if prices driven too low by all this hoopla
then gov/you/me will be back to paying price supports
to farmers, many times more than the tax credit
that greedy big oil gets. Then you will really holler.
Most corn was raised with tractors burning diesel.
On farm use all energy to raise all of the food, fiber,
ethanol, etc was less than 6% of the total energy
used in this country, so the crap argument that it
cost more to raise it is bogus.
I paid a high the dollar of
over 4 bucks last year. Diesel at same stations
was over 5 bucks. What is charged is the proof.
To prove gas would cost as much as diesel without
ethanol sitting in storage ready to use, is the
fact that it was easier to refine diesel out of oil,
thus it was cheaper years ago, and there is no
surplus supply of anything in storage to help
diesel supply like the ethanol does for gas.
Just the physical evidence, one has an extra supply
of decent size to help it and one doesn’t, and the one
that does is cheaper. It isn’t as big a price spread now
with overall prices lower, but it was quite a difference
during the time of real high prices.
The physical evidence of ethanol plants helping one(gas)
with lower prices at the pump, that I can see, and
the other(diesel) with no other industry or plants to help
much, is higher at the pump, that I can see,
is the common sense proof.Ed
Wrong. You don't know ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline?
If you can find out what gas and ethanol is now you can find out what it was when gas was 4 bucks.
Sorry, I couldn't find proof of your claim.
Granted ethanol is slightly cheaper than no-tax price of gas, right now
More expensive.
The physical evidence of ethanol plants helping one(gas) with lower prices at the pump
Ethanol is more expensive now. I remember last year, it was a lot more expensive. Plus the tax credit costs us billions. I don't see cheaper and you've still shown no proof.
I meant to say ethanol is a little more than
no-tax gas now. I can’t type or proof read worth crap.
Sure ethanol has higher vapapor pressure but with
an unsealed all you smell is gas which is a
polutant in the air also, much worse than grain
alcohol. So if a guys sees the price of 4 bucks
for gas at pump, it is alie andthey only charge
him two. Silly. Go to the CBOT history of
the prices and you will find it.Last year ethanol was
more than now but it was a lot less than gas pump
prices. early last year and year before ethanol
less even the no-tax gas price.Ans a 5 billion dollar
tax credit saving consumers 20-25 times that much
is a savings to me.
And that info came from a couple
of wall street brokerage firms and their analysts.
And it was posted on FR in some of the ethanol
bashing forums last year.Not my ideas, just smart
investors research, that stated ethanol kept gas
prices an average of about 50 cents a gal cheaper over
tha last bunch of years, so I just multiplied by
the usage and you have a figure. Which is many
times the tax credit. 2/3 of the Dept AG budget
is food stamps, like about 70 billion last I heard.
Do you holler about that?
A lot of folks have lost proper perspective,
theyt go bonkers over 5 billion in tax credits
and ethanol use and along with some other issues
have lost us an election to the libtard scum
running things now. For the first time in remembered
history a rural farm GOP area around here voted
for libtards, The saddest day here iswas to see
odummie signs all over the farm community. And one says
they are beating on us over ethanol and when prices crash
and I need supprts to be here next year to raise their
food, they will crucify me about that.I’m not voting
with them. “Them” being thought of as GOP. And then the
“them” have alienated 90% of immigrants with the
bad mouthing and them” still thought of as GOP,
is on the short end of an election.We have odumma.
Folks strain a gnat and push a camel through
the eye of the needle, and we have the results.
I'm no fan of Zero, but this got started under Clinton and was part of the spending orgy under a Republican House, Senate and Presidency.
Ethanol first got started by farmer co-ops
building plants to help get markets for corn surplus.
And with feeding operations getting bigger ag also
needed more high protein feed. Then other oxygenator
in gas was found cancer causing and water polluting,
so gov got busy and started pushing ethanol.When they started pushing, oil guys who don’t do nothing for
anything, without big bucks, said we need a credit to
do this, outsiders are making this stuff forced on us...
They didn’t need a credit to do the cancer causing one
as it was made by a big energy company that oil
investors owned.
Why is a tax credit of such a small amount
an orgy(granted other things they do are orgies),
when wall street analysts wrote
that ethanol saved consumers over
a 100 billion a year, more like 150 billion,
at the pump.
The reason to blast obama and green numbnuts about it,
is he and greenies figure it will reduce CO2
when in fact it makes engines burn cleaner making
more CO2 and less real pollutants. I don’t want to
reduce CO2 as that is what plant life has to have,
to sustain life here on earth, to make oxygen for us,
trees for lumber and paper, crops for food, etc.
More gasohol evaporates compared to "pure" gasoline. Even though you can't smell the ethanol, it and the gasoline produce smog.
So if a guys sees the price of 4 bucks for gas at pump, it is alie andthey only charge him two.
Huh?
Last year ethanol was more than now but it was a lot less than gas pump prices.
Why would you compare untaxed prices with the taxed price at the pump? Maybe that's why you keep making your silly claims?
.Ans a 5 billion dollar tax credit saving consumers 20-25 times that much is a savings to me.
You keep making this claim with no proof. I'll wait.....
Not my ideas, just smart investors research, that stated ethanol kept gas prices an average of about 50 cents a gal cheaper over tha last bunch of years
Well, if some article you can't find made that claim, it must be true. LOL!
so I just multiplied by the usage and you have a figure.
Garbage in, garbage out.
2/3 of the Dept AG budget is food stamps, like about 70 billion last I heard. Do you holler about that?
You bet. I dislike all wasteful government programs, even ones that reduce gas mileage, distort food markets and lead to overbuilding of uneconomical ethanol plants.
LOL! Still funny.
Historic U.S. fuel Ethanol Production
| Year | Millions of Gallons |
| 1980 | 175 |
| 1981 | 215 |
| 1982 | 350 |
| 1983 | 375 |
| 1984 | 430 |
| 1985 | 610 |
| 1986 | 710 |
| 1987 | 830 |
| 1988 | 845 |
| 1989 | 870 |
| 1990 | 900 |
| 1991 | 950 |
| 1992 | 1,100 |
| 1993 | 1,200 |
| 1994 | 1,350 |
| 1995 | 1,400 |
| 1996 | 1,100 |
| 1997 | 1,300 |
| 1998 | 1,400 |
| 1999 | 1,470 |
| 2000 | 1,630 |
| 2001 | 1,770 |
| 2002 | 2,130 |
| 2003 | 2,800 |
| 2004 | 3,400 |
| 2005 | 3,904 |
| 2006 | 4,855 |
| 2007 | 6,500 |
| 2008 | 9,000 |
Now, looking at your claim, 9 billion gallons of ethanol last year saved us $11 to $16 per gallon?
When you actually look at some real numbers, you'll understand why I've been so amused by your claims.
Last year, the USA used 3,280,965,000 barrels or 137.8 Billion gallons of gasoline. You claim using using fuel that was an average of 6.1% ethanol lowered the price by over a dollar a gallon?
U.S. Product Supplied of Finished Motor Gasoline
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mgfupus1a.htm
You really think ethanol will cost $1/gallon or less? How many ethanol plants would have been built (or will survive) with that forecast?
They are not going to shut the plants down if it is possible to run them in anyway as the million of lbs of high protein feed are still needed for help in raising our meat.
"Needed"? Unless I'm missing something, the only reason that high-protein feed is being fed to livestock today is because it's a cheap byproduct (waste) of the ethanol mfg process. It's a way for the ethanol plants to recoup a portion of their cost. It's akin to a coal-fired power plant selling cinders. Much like the demand for cinders will never be enough to keep a power plant open, the 'demand' for that 'feed' is not going to keep ethanol plants running. When ethanol production is not profitable, corn is fed to the livestock.
At any rate, when I pull into a gas station, I get to choose between E10 or straight gasoline. (Unlike Minnesota, we have no ethanol mandate here in Iowa.) In my experience, E10 delivers about 95% of the MPG of gasoline. Therefore, when E10 is priced at least 5% less than gasoline, I buy it. Otherwise, I don't.
Soon, I expect demand to cause the price of gasoline to climb well past $2/gallon again. If E10 continues to track only 10¢/gallon (< 5%) under, I'll be switching back to gasoline. Some people say I should 'do my part' and keep using E10 to reduce our reliance on foreign oil, support my local farmers, etc. But, when I weigh all the variables, I conclude there are much more sensible ways to get away from foreign oil than to attempt to replace it with ethanol, and I'm already 'doing my part' by living only 2 miles from work and putting only ~10K total per year on my relatively fuel-efficient cars. Regarding supporting my local farmers, I figure my elected officials are doing plenty of that with my tax dollars; further diverting 10% of my meager fuel budget would be nothing more than a feel-good gesture.
I've heard that a lot. I've heard others say grain prices account for so little of what's in our food budget, they're hardly worth mentioning.
Do you have any facts to prove whether and how much government-mandated ethanol distorts food markets?
I think I heard that ethanol production for fuel last year used 15% of the corn crop. You think that might distort the market? I know that I used to get corn on the cob for 10-25 cents an ear, here in Illinois. Last year, I think the best price I saw was 8 ears for $5.
32%
http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/upload/truth_primer.pdf
Page 23
Thanks for the correction.
“Earth Day,” formerly known as Lenin’s Birthday. Purely coincidental, I’m sure.
We're as happy as pigs in $hit!
And just as smart, too!
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