Other Far Right Response (Andrew Sullivan Mentions Free Republic Response to Tiller Murder)

The Atlantic ^ | 31 May 2009 | Andrew Sullivan

[nickcarraway]

From the Free Republic blog commenters, courtesy of Balloon Juice:

What goes around comes around...

One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

This isn't good, boys and girls ... not good at all. This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist, every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

SNIP

[bvw]

You miss the bigger point. The Rule of Law has been seriously harmed by Obama's dictatorial and arbitrary rule, and with the currents of social deconstruction by despotism and perversion which have been entered into law and regulation. Thus it is no longer a matter of personal choice to obey "The Law" just because it is the law. Each is left to his own judgment. The law -- case law, statute law, regulation -- is no longer a guide.

Today there are Laws all GOOD citizens must dis-obey. Today there are Natural Laws which are outlaw, which good citizens must do their best to see are still upheld. Just so we can survive through a few more generations.

And what happens when the elite law-makers of a society turn on it, turn against teh natural good order of society and man? Individuals are compelled to act to their own judgment, and some of those judgments will be tragically bad.

These are most difficult times. What was right is now wrong. What was wrong is now right. The Law is become despotic, venal, corrupting.

We do not yet have the recourse that the Founders did, when they set forth the legal bill of grievances known as The Declaration of Independence. They wrote:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve [the government and regular process of law] which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

We are caught here. Government HAS been long suffered by the People, it is now grown intolerably despotic. How do I measure this? Best by the bastardy rate! Two out of five children born to unmarried mothers. OUR time's despotism is suffered by the broken families, by the young raised without Fathers, by a government sponsored and promoted sexual amorality that demands grade-schoolers be trained in sexual perversions and that we celebrate homosexual "marriage". Adultery is no longer a crime, Sexual disease is rampant in college sophomores.

Those things alone are enough! And yet the government's despotism hasn't stopped there. Contract law is now nullified -- the car company and bank bonds are contracts subject no only to the day-to-day goodwill of the Regent -- usurper Obama. Property is taken by whimsy of government (Kelo v New London). People who live on top of great bodies of ground water, or lakes and rivers are prevented by niggardly regulation from having decent bathroom showers.

Yet the Founders were wise -- not only was it needed to have insufferable despostism long suffered (the state we are now in), but also we must have the ability to initiate and establish alternative government. They had an alternative -- the local and colony governments were the alternative. We, in our time do not.

We are in a much tougher spot.

What happens? What we are seeing. Breakdown in the actual law and order.

[DoughtyOne]

The disagreement is okay. I understand folks have strong thoughts on this matter.

I appreciate knowing that you understand where I am coming from. I agree with some of your more pointed comments too.

[Right Wing Assault]

Andy Sullivan thinks homosexual activity is somehow pro-choice?

Andy, Just think of all those poor e. coli bacteria that are crushed or drowned when you guys do your little anal thing!

[humblegunner]

From the Free Republic blog commenters

FR is not a blog.

[Mamzelle]

Seriously, I’m suggesting some policy even of limiting the # of threads and who would be allowed to start one when the subject is as hot as this, and the stakes attractive to the left.. If Soros pays for rent-a-mobs at CAP and ACORN, why wouldn’t he pay for cyber-mischief makers here on FR?

[gridlock]

Sullivan mashed a lot of comments together, which is hard to tell from his posting.

As for my contribution... Let me just say that my comments were “inappropriate” and “I could have phrased it better”.

There! All better!

[Fido969]

the left has not adopted my morals. They have their own set of them.

And they are wrong.

[colorado tanker]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I didn't take you seriously. It would be very easy to be a liberal seminar poster on FR, with our anonymous posting ability. Every now and then someone runs to ground a poster claiming to be a vet who isn't.

On a hot topic like this it would be very easy for a liberal columnist to manufacture his own material by posting on FR.

[nickcarraway]

How am I spreading the idea at all? I didn't write these articles, but they are out there, they exist. Is it better to be an ostrich and stick our heads in the sand?

You have the same mentality as those who blamed Rush Limbaugh for the Oklahoma City bombing back in 1995.

No, I live with the bitter memory of that, and don't want to see happen again. That was the only reason Clinton got reelected was that- and I don't want to see the same thing happen again. Why do you think ignoring the issue, will magically make it better?

It's easier to shoot the messenger. I guess if this was July 2001 you would lambaste me if I tried to bring attention to the KSM group?

[Mamzelle]

re: Another doctor, or doctors will step in,don’t doubt it.)))

Well, as for that, I don't think we'll see a successor in Wichita taking over Tiller's "practice"-- Sibelius is no longer governor and the publicity of being the PBA Capitol of the world is probably not something that Wichita still wants to be.

Yesterday, when I saw the first news of his murder, I felt a very sick "Oh, no!" because I believe it was the worst possible news for the pro-life movement. It also seemed pretty good news for the pro-choicers, who have been increasingly embattled by having Tiller be the public ugly face of abortion. Add to that the fact that he was murdered in cold blood in a church, and it sounds too suspiciously like a television screenplay designed to vilify the pro-lifers.

Now, I don't think that the pro-choicers are going to be able to paint all the pro-life movement with this crime, however hard they may try. But I was wondering yesterday why after they captured the suspect they refused to say anything about him.

It was like they were giving the pols time to create a "narrative"--

[DoughtyOne]

You miss the bigger point. The Rule of Law has been seriously harmed by Obama's dictatorial and arbitrary rule, and with the currents of social deconstruction by despotism and perversion which have been entered into law and regulation. Thus it is no longer a matter of personal choice to obey "The Law" just because it is the law. Each is left to his own judgment. The law -- case law, statute law, regulation -- is no longer a guide.  We are discussing the appropriateness of committing murder.  I stated that we should abide by the rule of law, so I opened up that can of worms.  I still don't think bringing Obama into this is reasoned.  He has not made some new recent law that impacts abortion.  The abortion laws on our books were there long before him.  I don't see the validity of bringing him into this any more than bringing George Bush into it.  Taking the law into our own hands does not make things better.  It makes things exponentially worse.  The courts and our government may not be perfect, but they are preferable to anarchy.

Today there are Laws all GOOD citizens must dis-obey. Today there are Natural Laws which are outlaw, which good citizens must do their best to see are still upheld. Just so we can survive through a few more generations.  Look, anarchy is not the answer.  We live in a stable state of being for the most part.  What you are advocating is a departure from that.  We would have our little enclaves that would take justice into their own hands.  Okay then what?  The the left forms little enclaves where they take justice into their own hands.  This creates a civil war setting like what took place in Lebanon, Kosovo, you name it.  You don't quite get that do you?

And what happens when the elite law-makers of a society turn on it, turn against teh natural good order of society and man? Individuals are compelled to act to their own judgment, and some of those judgments will be tragically bad.  I agree.  Those judgments would be tragically bad.  That's why the threshold for the type of activity you describe is so much higher than you seem to think it is.

These are most difficult times. What was right is now wrong. What was wrong is now right. The Law is become despotic, venal, corrupting.  We can certainly find evidences of that, but it's not as bad as you paint it to be.  Right now we have some things we definitely disagree with.  In the model you seems to support above, we would have a situation flipped upside down.  Instead of having some things we disagree with now, we would only have some things we agreed with then.  Imagine open season on your local streets, as one faction wared on another.  That's what the end result would be.  It wouldn't be a new better government.  It would be almost the total lack of government, federal and local.  The local police couldn't cope with the open season you seem to think is warranted.

We do not yet have the recourse that the Founders did, when they set forth the legal bill of grievances known as The Declaration of Independence. They wrote:

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve [the government and regular process of law] which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Do you have any concept of how low you have set the bar in order to justify the murder of an abortion doctor?  To justify the murder, you have called to question the very existence of our nation.  Now we're to be looking to declare independence and start a new union, separate nations.  I personally think you have lost contact with reality to justify what you want to.

Look, Obama is a very bad choice to be Pres__ent.  There's no doubt about it.  And yes, it does call to question the legal underpinnings of our nation.  What has that got to do with the murder of an abortion doctor.  Focus bud.

We are caught here. Government HAS been long suffered by the People, it is now grown intolerably despotic. How do I measure this? Best by the bastardy rate! Two out of five children born to unmarried mothers. OUR time's despotism is suffered by the broken families, by the young raised without Fathers, by a government sponsored and promoted sexual amorality that demands grade-schoolers be trained in sexual perversions and that we celebrate homosexual "marriage". Adultery is no longer a crime, Sexual disease is rampant in college sophomores.  It was the enactment of new laws and policies that brought this about.  And it's the enactment of new laws and policies that will put an end to it.  You don't destroy the framework of governance we have, to fix it.  Anarchy is still anarchy.  NO!

Those things alone are enough! And yet the government's despotism hasn't stopped there. Contract law is now nullified -- the car company and bank bonds are contracts subject no only to the day-to-day goodwill of the Regent -- usurper Obama. Property is taken by whimsy of government (Kelo v New London). People who live on top of great bodies of ground water, or lakes and rivers are prevented by niggardly regulation from having decent bathroom showers.  These may all be good topics for other discussion, but I disagree that they are intertwined with this matter to the degree you seem to think they are.

Yet the Founders were wise -- not only was it needed to have insufferable despostism long suffered (the state we are now in), but also we must have the ability to initiate and establish alternative government. They had an alternative -- the local and colony governments were the alternative. We, in our time do not.  Once again, we are talking about the murder of an abortion doctor.  We are not talking about the irrevocable movement to overthrow this government and start all over.  Good grief man.  Are you aware of the ramifications of your post here?  I shudder to think of people reading this diatribe.  We were talking about the appropraiteness of murder, and now it's escalated to the need to overthrow the government.  That's just moon-bat crazy.

We are in a much tougher spot.  Perhaps we'll discuss your theories some day, but I'm not going to discuss this expansive ballooning of logic, on this thread.  I came here to discuss the merits of murder to get our way.

What happens? What we are seeing. Breakdown in the actual law and order.  I would urge you to read this sentence twenty times, then go back over this post of yours and see how you are playing into the very thing you seem to be heralding here.

If there is a breakdown of law as evidenced by this murder, then who is advocating a break down of law, if they think what this guy did was right on.

I think he was a wing nut.  He was wrong.  He deserves to be executed for what he did.  This is not the way to go about making our nation better.  Your train of thought here makes that painfully obvious.

[nickcarraway]

What’s your choice, become pro-abortion?

Bring pro-life does not mean being the stereotype of what the left believes a pro-lifer is.

[reagan_fanatic]

That picture speaks a hard, cold, sickening truth. Abortion IS murder, and I will have no part of this moral relevancy crap we see going on right now.

Tiller's killer SHOULD be condemned for what he did, and SHOULD face punishment for his actions. Vigilante justice has no place here. On the other hand, abortionists like Tiller who kill thousands of innocent children every year with the aplomb of dentists pulling rotten teeth should likewise be condemned and face punishment for their heinous crimes.

[donna]

How am I spreading the idea at all? I didn't write these articles, but they are out there, they exist. Is it better to be an ostrich and stick our heads in the sand?

It is socialist propaganda. Why are you spreading it?

"You have the same mentality as those who blamed Rush Limbaugh for the Oklahoma City bombing back in 1995."
No, I live with the bitter memory of that, and don't want to see happen again. That was the only reason Clinton got reelected was that- and I don't want to see the same thing happen again.

Clinton got reelected because we ran Dole, not because the left blamed the bombing on Rush Limbaugh.

Why do you think ignoring the issue, will magically make it better?

What do you think you will accomplish by acting as if conservatives are guilty of something?

It's easier to shoot the messenger. I guess if this was July 2001 you would lambaste me if I tried to bring attention to the KSM group?

Bottom line: Are we supposed to stop being pro-life?

What do you want from us?

[DoughtyOne]

You can keep saying that for 1000 more times if you like. It has nothing to do with this conversation.

If I as an individual get to be judge and jury, I might or might not have sound judgment. If it’s okay for me to be judge and jurty, then it’s okay for others to be. And if someone else gets to be judge and jury, they might not have sound judgment.

That’s why neither of us can be judge and jury.

Continually telling me there is one moral right and wrong is ridiculous. Not everyone understands that. That’s why it isn’t important here. There will be some people out there who don’t know there is a solid moral right and wrong. Get it?

Do you honestly expect a court to say, hey it’s okay that Ron murdered someone, but it isn’t okay when Al Franken does it? In what world would that be?

[bvw]

Yes, it's murder and the murderer is captured. But you are missing how badly our system of government has become rotted. With Obama, rather than a foundation repair construction crew and exterminator of termites and ants, we have taken on a man-usurper who makes the ground wetter for the termites and pours sugar in the walls to attract ants. A leader who exterminates opposition, and gives no access to the construction vehicles.

But you are right. That most severe and worsening governmental rot and the massive social breakdown may seem to most citizens, yourself, and most others, to have at this time little relation to the murder. My words, however are not a call to action. G-d forbid that any person enter that state of personal chaos which gives a man or woman motive to mayhem and murder -- for whatever cause.

My words are a warning of the way things stand, but yet are not yet seen to be - by you and by most, still comfortable, still in the inertial flow of a once highly moral culture and laws. A culture where births out of wedlock were uncommon, and abortions rare.

I speak to what I see is happening, what seems to be underway. A time of dangers and breakdowns.

[YellowRoseofTx]

but we still murder in churches.

WE don't...one disturbed man did, and it was wrong. But WE didn't and don't, nor did WE call for it.

[colorado tanker]

I meant "we" in the sense of our society, our civilization.

I know the vast majority of the pro-life community condemns this crime.

My point goes to a larger point, that regardless of our wealth and technology, our society is just as broken and in need of redemption as that of 1000 years ago and 1000 years before that.

[DoughtyOne]

Yes, it's murder and the murderer is captured. But you are missing how badly our system of government has become rotted. With Obama, rather than a foundation repair construction crew and exterminator of termites and ants, we have taken on a man-usurper who makes the ground wetter for the termites and pours sugar in the walls to attract ants. A leader who exterminates opposition, and gives no access to the construction vehicles.  I don't disagree with this.  I still don't want to branch out exponentially to cover all the ills of our nation on this topic.  To me it would be much more germane, if we were talking about the fascist takeover of the auto manufactureres or perhaps the clear criminality of ACORN and how the left is giving it a pass, or even the eligibility of Obama to be president.  Abortion doesn't lend itself to the connection you made, even if it is very vile in and of it's own.  You see, if that connection was reasoned, then it could have been made under other administrations, mainly because the laws haven't changed with regard to it.  At least that's how I see it.

But you are right. That most severe and worsening governmental rot and the massive social breakdown may seem to most citizens, yourself, and most others, to have at this time little relation to the murder. My words, however are not a call to action. G-d forbid that any person enter that state of personal chaos which gives a man or woman motive to mayhem and murder -- for whatever cause.  I agree with you here also.  And look, I do think abortion is a sign of the times, so don't get me wrong there either.  It's a vile thing and it certainly is a signpost on the road to perdition for our nation.

My words are a warning of the way things stand, but yet are not yet seen to be - by you and by most, still comfortable, still in the inertial flow of a once highly moral culture and laws. A culture where births out of wedlock were uncommon, and abortions rare.  Comfort is relative.  Before the Civil War, folks thought war would set the Union Leadership straight.  They thought rebellion was the way to fix things.  The South suffered greatly from that mindset IMO.  I don't want to see certain mindsets usher in another time of great trouble.  That's why I urge movements and changes under the system we have.  Yes, some day there may come a time when we can't take any longer the despicable decisions of the national leadership, but don't think there wouldn't be an absolutely terrible price paid for that decision by both sides.  Are we there yet?  Absolutely not IMO.

I speak to what I see is happening, what seems to be underway. A time of dangers and breakdowns.   Yes, I believe we are in a time of danger and breakdowns.  I advocate the right get it's act together and become more effective.

What I cannot support, is something that will be used to destroy the reason the Conservatives wish others to see in their advocacy.

The last thing I want anyone to be able to do, is point to the Conservatives and say you better not elect them.  They think assassinating abortion doctors is the way to go.  Just think what they might do to those who believe like you do?

You don't want that either.