Posted on 11/11/2010 9:33:02 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
The problem is, you've just described the average American office worker circa 2005 - already made redundant by the Information Revolution, adding no value, living in a house he can't afford and should never have been allowed to borrow from the bank, driving a leased luxury car, and thinking he is rich and successful.
The mental reset hasn't really hit yet (it takes at least 99 weeks now...) When it does, the economic consequences are going to be horrific.
This^^^^ Can you imagine the job possibilities in the gov't if you are a black disabled woman veteran who is also gay???
Our much vaunted service economy devolved into a consumer economy where consumers are the engine of economic growth and economic recovery. The Fed Reserve is busy trying to “stimulate” these consumers right now via increasing inflation. This will stimulate consumers to chase goods, foreign and domestic made goods, before their price goes up. Right now people must be doing this as far as food and groceries since inflation has already hit that sector.
A consumer based economy is a lazy degenerate lie and will always end badly. If you want to live high off the hog and consume high off the hog you must produce high off the hog. Most especially produce what foreigners want to buy instead of running up 500-700 billion dollar trade deficits. Our agriculture sector is doing this and I salute them.
I don't think I was talking about either. In fact, I was talking about removing a trade subsidy: guaranteed safe conduct of overseas operations and transport at the expense of the American taxpayer.
The question is, do we give up and give everyone protected union or government jobs and go broke a la Europe, or do we figure out how to become individually productive again in new ways?
I believe a money system based upon validated productivity of land is one possible answer.
You shouldn't be the one laughing, Will.
"Competitive with whom, people in China and other cheap labor nations who work for scarcely 5% of US wages."
Yes, that is with whom we have to stay competitive. That is how it always was and how it will always be. Whenever we became noncompetitive, our wages fell, and rose at other times. In the 1921 recession --- the last one before socialists started to turn recessions into Great Depressions --- wages fell 30%.
We were different then, of course. Unlike you and most victims of mis-education today, people knew that such hardships were normal, something akin to acts of G-d. You be angry with a storm that took off your roof all you want, but it'll not help. Likewise here, you can be upset all you want when wages fall, but that is normal: you prepare for and endure it when it happens (with the help of community, friends and family).
The recession of 1921 was therefore deep but, as most other recessions, short. It lasted about 18 months, which is the average. What followed was the "golden age" lasting until the Great Depression, during which the middle class and the poor saw their incomes rise.
That changed when the American people have finally, after 40 years of propaganda, embraced socialism. They have been taught to be angry at capitalists, especially the banks. And you are a great example of that. Nobody but each of us individually is responsible for staying competitive. The misalignments will always occur, and it is still our own responsibility to prepare for them and endure.
But, please do follow the socialists if you are so inclined; continue to blame someone else for "robbing us of jobs." Beats learning some economics and realizing that you've been had by the socialists.
That you've been had by the socialists is evidenced also by the fact that you don't know how to count money, which naturally leads you to wrong conclusions. Please see post #33 if you care.
"Do you think you're competitive?"
Unlike the previous, factual error on your part, this one is logical. What difference does this make what I think about myself or what happens to me personally. The issue was what happens to American workers on average. People compute averages precisely because the circumstances are difference; some people are below, some at, and some are below average. So, what will it matter if I am super competitive and draw secure huge salary, or I not competitive at all, failing to find any job at all for five years. What would any of that prove? Nothing at all, of course.
The reason you turned the discussion from the issue to me personally is, of course, your assumption that I don't apply the same rules in my personal life. Your mother and preachers must've failed to tell you that it is not nice to assume the worst about people whom you don't know at all.
"Tell us what you do and let's find out.."
And who on earth are you, Willy, to ask that without saying please or, as you actually do, demand this from people?
No wonder you know little. You don't ask question about the substance of the issue, preferring to turn on people; and, when you do, you choose to be poor-mannered. It's your right, Willy; we still live in a free country. But if you continue to do so, you'll continue to be ignorant and angry for no reason.
"...what you should make based on "competitive" worldwide compensation?"
Once again, you reveal a complete misunderstanding of the issues involved. Focusing solely on wages is a mistake, which you continue to make post after post. If you speak about money and wages, you should at least slow down and understand how to count them. This is what you unfortunately say post after post:
"Makes no difference what you do. You aren't competitive. No American is "competitive" with the cheapest labor in the world's poorest nations."
Do some reading, Will. Go to a community college if you can. If you cannot, at least ask questions about things you know not --- instead of arguing about them.
Straight from Marx, Willy. It's because of the "conservatives" like you, who out of ignorance sing socialist songs, that we have neo-communists and neo-fascists in the White House.
No they don't. It's like blaming high gasoline prices on "speculators" (you've probably done that too a few years back). Both speculators and lobbyist are minuscule compared to forces that are at work here. Don't fall for this variant of the conspiracy-theory crap: it is so devoid of reality as to be simply ridiculous.
"You mean the laws encouraging companies to offshore have nothing to do with it?"
I am not aware of the laws that were put in place in order to encourage offshoring. Please clarify.
"The laws making it nearly more difficult to operate a business here in the US have nothing to do with it?"
Of course it has a lot to do with this. When we impose more regulation, when we demand and receive health-care from our employers (why not food and housing?), when we demand and receive all sorts of benefits --- we make ourselves more and more expensive as workers and therefore less and less competitive. I agree. Now, why did you think there was any contradiction here?
"There’s nothing simple about it. Its not a free market."
It appears you misunderstand what the market is.
Lol, no, it was straight from your post #18. You deem some Americans to be non-competitive:
And why were they doing (some of) the things you allege? Is it not because the labor you mentioned has failed to stay competitive?
If put in competition with the world's cheapest labor, and lowest cost skilled labor, ALL Americans have failed to stay competitive, including you. All your childish name calling and non-nonsensical attempts to explain it away only show how unwilling you are to honestly address reality.
Again, tell us what you do. Let's see how competitive you are with those doing similar work in the world's cheap labor nations.
Some people mistakenly focus solely on wages and conclude, also erroneously, that we cannot get back jobs unless we agree to Chinese salaries.
Your error is just the opposite: you ignore the wages entirely and focus solely on productivity. Please see post #33 if you care.
More importantly, you somehow assume that certifications are a judgment of the person's competitiveness. It is not enough to be productive: one should be productive in the currently desired industry (think of all those experts in producing tape-recorders --- would you hire them today?).
We can't deduce what someone is worth by observing that person. The idea that one can deduce what wages a person should receive is due to Marx. This fact alone should disturb a conservative finding that he thinks similarly.
The determinant of our wages is the market (not some certifications or even the resume). Sometimes it speaks in our favor, such as when computer programmers with no education were getting huge wages, for decades due to shortage. Sometimes it does the opposite, and we go through hardships. But when the market speaks there is nothing we can do but listen.
I the previous post I attracted your attention to your rudeness and childish behavior, thinking it may have been accidental. It is not.
Sorry, Willie, I shall not right to you again (unless by accident, having forgotten your name) until you grow up a bit and learn some manners.
Nothing personal, Willie. I have a policy of not wrestling with children and pigs. And your posts suggest that you belong to both categories.
Have a good day.
Lol, lol, how predictable. You get on here and make all sorts of value judgments about particular categories of American workers, but if anyone puts the same test of "competitiveness" to you, you immediately resort to childish name calling, Jesse Jackson like tactics to avoid a fuller discussion of the topic about which you so love to make pronouncements.
It is the definition of childishness to refuse scrutiny for yourself that you so arrogantly apply to others. Reminds me of Obama and leftists in general.
I absolutely agree and would add that our prosperity/growth was fueled by massive amount of unsustainable debt. Now both bubbles have collapsed and we are suffering a massive hangover = no jobs, and no purchasing power though a paycheck or credit card. No purchasing means too many workers, which then leads to less jobs, less purchasing, less jobs, etc. etc...Down, down, down we go and where it ends, who knows.
I have perhaps expressed my thoughts too succinctly for them to be entirely correct. I did not mean to imply that the direct cost of labor is the only problem. As you pointed out, it is the (risk-adjusted) cost of employing labor that must be sufficiently low for us to be competitive. And all those things you mention increase the costs of employing labor. No wonder the employers don't hire.
Naturally, the political instability we experiencing now makes any investment in this country more risky. The risk-adjusted cost of employing American workers is therefore even higher --- yes, thanks to Obama and Pelosi (actually, to one half of the country who loves them).
Thank you for your clarification.
I was generally agreeing with you, and offering additional related commentary.
No offense. LoL
I was painting with a broad brush.
But actually I was referring to non degreed people that can run rings around the college degreed guy, but who are pushed out or denied advancement because they dont have that piece of paper.
Idiots in HR look at resumes for a cheese factory and they give the guy with a degree who mentions that he likes CHEESE consideration over the non degreed master cheese maker who lists Camembert/Brie and Blue as well as Chèvre, Feta and Ricotta on his resume. (they didnt see the word CHEESE)
I see this sort of thing all time.
I see managers who want to get rid of their best and brightest because they are non degreed and they want to list degreed people in the bids.
They will dump a self made process engineer with 30 years experience for a greenhorn QA guy with a degree.
Poor performance and chaos and lot’s of meetings trying to explain it all, generally results.
I have seen managers who were in a bind with backlog, demand DAILY TWO Hour Meetings trying to figure out why backlog is not being reduced.
And when I told them that they were wasting 10 man hours per person weekly on their fruitless meetings taking them away from actually working on the backlog, they would just look down their noses at me with disdain because I am non degreed.
The key to success is not some airy process program.
The key is “Adapt, Improvise and Overcome”
That Marine motto should be drilled into the head of all employees from top to bottom.
Empower the individual, and you will have a mean lean team.
It amazes me that in this information age, we have 4 times the paper work that we used to have before “the revolution” LoL!
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