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Just How Freaked Out Should You Be About A ‘Muni Meltdown’?
CNBC ^ | 12/23/10 | Jason Farkas

Posted on 12/24/2010 7:58:03 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster

Just How Freaked Out Should You Be About A ‘Muni Meltdown’?

Published: Thursday, 23 Dec 2010 | 11:31 AM ET

By: Jason Farkas

America is now officially worried about a municipal bond meltdown. In a piece called "Day of Reckoning," CBS 60 Minutes showcased financial analyst Meredith Whitney’s bold prediction that we will see “50 to 100 sizable [muni] defaults...more. This will amount to hundreds of billions of dollars of defaults.” It’s a frightening forecast.

Another sign that the muni issue has captured America’s attention: the number of people searching for the term ‘municipal bond’ on Google has spiked in the last week.

Even Goldman Sachs [GS 167.60 -2.00 (-1.18%) ] and Citigroup [C 4.68 -0.05 (-1.06%) ] analysts rushed out notes in the days following the broadcast, assessing the likelihood of Whitney’s doomsday scenario.

“The public debate on the subject of municipal credit is terrific and Whitney has helped to energize it even more,” says Ben Thompson, who oversees $7 billion in tax-exempt debt for Samson Capital.

Not one to ignore the structural problems in the municipal market, Ben was early to alert CNBC's "Strategy Session" to these issues back in June. But he’s quick to question the scope of Whitney’s call: “I disagree with the conclusion that the market is facing imminent defaults of the magnitude she described.”

So should you be freaked out?

(Excerpt) Read more at cnbc.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: meredithwhitney; munibonds; munidefault
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 12/24/2010 7:58:05 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; PAR35; AndyJackson; Thane_Banquo; nicksaunt; MadLibDisease; happygrl; ...

P!


2 posted on 12/24/2010 7:58:37 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Muni’s have always been considered a “safe” play. Therefore many pention plans and cautious investors invested in Muni’s. If all those investments feel the need to sell, and I suspect many will, it could result in a total meltdown in the Muni markets and may spread...


3 posted on 12/24/2010 8:05:28 AM PST by devane617 (NEVER feed your cats canned Tuna fish. Mercury poisoning.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

When the criminals and Union thugs riot the market will crash, big time.


4 posted on 12/24/2010 8:07:55 AM PST by Logical me
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Gov. Elect Rick Snyder has indicated up to a dozen Michigan cities will declare bankruptcy early next year. What will interesting to watch is the tricks, if any are left, to reassemble the house of cards. Does the State bail them out with funny Federal money? Just one more straw on the Cloward and Piven camel's back.
5 posted on 12/24/2010 8:11:15 AM PST by PDMiller
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To: TigerLikesRooster
John Mauldin's take:

Hundreds of Billions in Losses? Really?

I have been asked what I think about the recent 60 Minutes piece where Meredith Whitney said there would be hundreds of billions of dollar of losses in the municipal bond market. Should we all sell our municipal bonds?

The short answer is that all bond risk is specific to the issuer, so you or your surrogates need to do their homework. But in general, I have real doubts that there will be "hundreds of billions" of losses in the municipal bond market. Whitney said she did not expect defaults from the states, so that leaves just local entities. The worst year on record for losses was 2008, with just over $8 billion. The municipal-bond industry insists bankruptcy filings will remain rare. There were 10 municipal filings in 2009 and five so far this year, according to James Spiotto, a lawyer at Chapman & Cutler. Since the law was created in the 1930s, there have been only about 600 cases.

"Most defaults in the modern era aren't governmental or what we might call municipal at all. The majority are corporate or nonprofit borrowings in the guise of some municipal conduit - nursing homes, housing developments, biofuel refineries - so they could qualify for tax-free financing." (Bloomberg) These are mostly deals where investors are reaching for yield and should pay attention to the source of funds for repayment.

It would take a default by almost every major municipal issuer, and a lot of small ones, to create a hundred billion in defaults, something not likely to happen. Will there be some? Sure. There always are. It is just hard to see it being anywhere close to that much in the next few years, which is her time frame.

As Joe Mysak of Bloomberg wrote:

"And yet - hundreds of billions of dollars in default? The number is in the realm of the fabulous. If pressed, I would say that we might see between 100 and 200 municipal defaults next year, maybe totaling in the $5 billion or $10 billion range.

"...'Debt levels for U.S. local and state governments are relatively low, with annual debt service representing a relatively small part of budgets,' Fitch Ratings said in a special report in November.

"Entitled 'U.S. State and Local Government Bond Credit Quality: More Sparks Than Fire,' the report said, 'The tax-supported debt of an average state is equal to just 3 percent - 4 percent of personal income, and local debt roughly 3 percent - 5 percent of property value. Debt service is generally less than 10 percent of a state or local government's budget, and in many cases much less.'"

That is not to say I don't see risk. I have written often that I think states, counties, and municipalities, hospital and school districts, etc. will come under increasingly intense pressure. The problems with New Jersey, California, Illinois et al. are well-known.

We are going to see massive cuts in all sorts of services and public employment and increases in taxes at all levels. As the stimulus to states winds down, the budget pressures will ratchet up. The part of the 60 Minutes presentation I think you should pay attention to is the section with Governor Christie of New Jersey. That is the reality many states face. They are forced to make spending cuts. Sooner or later every state will have to adopt that approach, even California. Although the idea of Jerry Brown facing down unions and slashing budgets is one that does convey a small sense of irony.

I think the risk is not from holding municipal bonds (although I am not discounting that risk) but in living in areas where budgets are going to be strained. If I were moving, I would want to check on the financial strength of the state and locality I was moving to. If street budgets gets slashed or taxes raised, if police and fire service becomes an issue, or reduced maintenance of parks, etc., then you might think about another locality. Things will normalize, and Whitney is right to call our attention to the severity of the crisis - getting back to a New Normal will be a bumpy ride for many localities.

On the "if there's a crisis there must be an opportunity" note, my friend David Kotok of Cumberland Advisors writes about finding AAA-rated (and checked by his firm) municipal bonds paying 6% tax-free. There is value out there if you or someone who manages your money can look for it

Some Thoughts on Market Timing

6 posted on 12/24/2010 8:17:28 AM PST by DeaconBenjamin (A trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're NOT talking real money)
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Kaslin

Ping and how do you find out who’s on a pinglist so that you don’t reping?


7 posted on 12/24/2010 8:18:32 AM PST by Silentgypsy
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To: TigerLikesRooster

5.75% interest rate is the current level for good quality municipal bonds. This is up from 5% level of a couple of months ago.

The bond market is appropriately telling the state and local governments that they need to get their financial house in order or they will have to pay more to borrow money.

I think the bond market is also telling the state and local governments not to expect further handouts from Obama now that the Republicans are the majority in the House of Representatives.


8 posted on 12/24/2010 8:26:31 AM PST by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: TigerLikesRooster

I’ll say this: any entity that defaults its bonds should be forced to dis-incorporate and cease to exist. If a new entity should arise to replace it, so be it. But to me, defaulting on bonds should be tantamount to corporate death.

No life-support. No beating of dead horses. No squeezing the turnips.


9 posted on 12/24/2010 8:27:40 AM PST by Migraine (Diversity is great... ...until it happens to YOU.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

YAWN!!!!!


10 posted on 12/24/2010 8:34:07 AM PST by org.whodat
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To: TigerLikesRooster

“So should you be freaked out?”

No we should encourage it and do EVERYTHING in our power to see that GOVERNMENT DEBT is REPUDIATED. The very idea that citizens can BORN INTO DEBT laid on them by Politicians WHO ARE NO LONGER IN OFFICE is on it’s face REPUGNANT to everything this country was founded on. We used to call this INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE.

The simple answer to this problem is as follows:

ALL CONTRACTS and AGREEMENTS SHALL EXPIRE AT THE END OF THE LEGISLATIVE TERM OF THE LEGISLATIVE BODY THAT AUTHORIZED SAID CONTRACTS AND AGREEMENTS.

No Legislative body is bound by the acts of a previous legislative body. One of our oldest SUPREME COURT PRECEDENTS, with that in Mind is not EVERY PUBLIC PENSION CONTRACT and PUBLIC DEBT ISSUANCE NULL AND VOID at the End of the Legislative term that entered into said agreement???


11 posted on 12/24/2010 8:40:37 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: devane617

Most of the munis are probably held in funds. The way it’s probably going to work is that the defaults will be allocated to the widows and orphans, and the ones that are good will be allocated to Goldman and Soros. But how many folks are going to call up their plan administrators and say ‘get me out of munis’. And those that do will probably be talked out of it by folks emphasizing the risks and the lack of return from other investments.

The international banksters will be eating a lot of mutton this winter, as the sheep are going to get slaughtered.


12 posted on 12/24/2010 8:58:38 AM PST by PAR35
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To: TigerLikesRooster
“I disagree with the conclusion that the market is facing imminent defaults of the magnitude she described.”

What happens if the defaults are "only" 1/3 or 1/2 of the magnitude she described? Sounds like some of those guys in 1929.

13 posted on 12/24/2010 9:08:21 AM PST by Oatka ("A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." –Bertrand de Jouvenel)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

I’m freakin’ out, Jerry! Well, I’m not quite yet ready to abandon my short term bond fund.


14 posted on 12/24/2010 9:13:10 AM PST by andyk (Hi, my name's Andy, and I am a BF 1942 / Desert Combat junkie.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Freaked out? I am looking forward to the day!

Conspiracy theorists talk about “Cloward and Piven?” I say - bring it on. Bankruptcy of the bloated states and munis will only hurt the left.


15 posted on 12/24/2010 9:14:50 AM PST by PGR88
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To: Oatka

Legitimate bond funds are insured.....that is why they are so safe.


16 posted on 12/24/2010 9:20:33 AM PST by AFret. ("Charlie don't surf ! ")
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To: AFret.
Legitimate bond funds are insured.....that is why they are so safe.

Are you being tongue in cheek, here? That sort of thinking has led to all manner of problems in other areas.

In the face of widespread default, how will any insurance itself avoid the same fate? It can't eliminate systemic risk. It can only accomodate a limited number of specific instances.

Bonds have been approved and issued by a great number of municipalities under boom-time assumptions that are now proving tenuous for a lot of them. The possibility of default is not just an abstraction, it's looking increasingly likely.

17 posted on 12/24/2010 9:32:15 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: PGR88

Don’t fool yourself, the Obama administration will bail out any of the blue states that are in trouble due to the high cost of government union benefits.

They have already made inroads into subsidizing those states, first with the huge “green energy” hand out to California for passing the Cap and trade bill and then with the 9/11 health care bill that is really a union monopoly bill which bails out the under funded NY pension and benefit fund (actually, it bails out all the big blue city benefit and pension funds).


18 posted on 12/24/2010 9:35:52 AM PST by Eva
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To: RegulatorCountry

No..I’m not kidding.

The majority of my portfolio consists of MFS Municipal Bonds.
I had along talk with my broker,a year or so ago. I was concerned, as we all are, about the default of municipalities holding the bonds. As we have seen lately,cities are turning of street lights,furloughing police officers...etc. The end is near for some.

Bottom line...In order to borrow our money, the municipalities must purchase and maintain insurance on the bonds they are selling. That is why they are so safe. As my broker concluded,” Muni Bonds are the second safest investment in the country,the only safer investment is Government bonds”. They aren’t flashy or sexy, but they will make you wealthy.


19 posted on 12/24/2010 9:45:41 AM PST by AFret. ("Charlie don't surf ! ")
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To: PAR35

If there were just ‘one’ area to pick that would be sure to cause severe calamity in the economy it would be Muni’s. As you state, they are ‘so’ embedded in portfolios, especially portfolios of the conservative and less than active investor, that this will go down largely unnoticed until the market collapse and only then will the aforementioned investor start to wonder about their empty accounts. This situation has crisis written all over it....


20 posted on 12/24/2010 9:50:57 AM PST by devane617 (NEVER feed your cats canned Tuna fish. Mercury poisoning.)
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To: AFret.

Muni’s are NO LONGER a safe investment. You need to rethink you comfort level for loses.


21 posted on 12/24/2010 9:53:13 AM PST by devane617 (NEVER feed your cats canned Tuna fish. Mercury poisoning.)
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To: AFret.

I’d take a long, hard look at which municipal bonds are contained within any fund, seriously. Jefferson County, Alabama is something to look at. Bond insurers themselves have not been immune to financial stress due to mortgage-related securities. Syncora Guarantee Inc. and Financial Guaranty Insurance Co., two of the major bond insurors, had their credit ratings reduced in 2008. Bloomberg has an informative article on this, I’d post an excerpt but I believe this is not permitted. It should come up easily on a search engine.


22 posted on 12/24/2010 10:14:14 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: AFret.
Legitimate bond funds are insured.....that is why they are so safe.

I know and understand, but they said the same about mortgage bonds. I'm just wondering at what point the defaults impact the insurance companies. With apologies to the Romans, "Who insures the insurers?" (O Geez, Bernacke comes to mind. :-) )

23 posted on 12/24/2010 10:18:41 AM PST by Oatka ("A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." –Bertrand de Jouvenel)
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To: AFret.

“”Legitimate bond funds are insured.....that is why they are so safe.””

_____

1. Bond funds are not insured. Only the municipal bonds that make up the funds are for the most part insured.

2. Municipal bonds formerly were safe because the bonds were insured and the issuer was financially prudent. Today the Bond Insurance Companies have terrible balance sheets. The Bond Insurance Companies got themselves caught up in Mortgage Backed Securities and Collatorized Debt Obligations and lost their proverbial shirt. To further compound the problem the municipalities have been overspending and their balance sheets are terrible.

So today there are lot more risks with Municipal Bonds, but if you do your research good bonds can be found.


24 posted on 12/24/2010 10:19:40 AM PST by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: devane617

Please elaborate...

I’m always willing to learn.


25 posted on 12/24/2010 10:22:34 AM PST by AFret. ("Charlie don't surf ! ")
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To: AFret.

#22, 23 and 24 stated the nature of the problems well. Last Sunday’s “60 Minutes” had a very well done story on Muni’s that made news all week. As hard as a few tried to refute the story, in the end the major points were left unanswered. Good luck.


26 posted on 12/24/2010 10:33:51 AM PST by devane617 (NEVER feed your cats canned Tuna fish. Mercury poisoning.)
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To: devane617

I thank you for your reply.

I don’t watch 60 Minutes, but I will do some research and re-visit with my Broker after the Holidays.

Good luck to us all...


27 posted on 12/24/2010 10:37:53 AM PST by AFret. ("Charlie don't surf ! ")
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To: AFret.
60 Full Segment

This story aired last Sunday night and is worth a few minutes. I found the story to be surprisingly unbiased. Gov Christie of NJ puts the problems in plain-speak....

28 posted on 12/24/2010 11:07:43 AM PST by devane617 (NEVER feed your cats canned Tuna fish. Mercury poisoning.)
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To: eyeamok
"One of our oldest SUPREME COURT PRECEDENTS, with that in Mind is not EVERY PUBLIC PENSION CONTRACT and PUBLIC DEBT ISSUANCE NULL AND VOID at the End of the Legislative term that entered into said agreement???"

The problem with muni bonds will not be solved until public worker's union contracts are voided.

Government Unions

29 posted on 12/24/2010 11:14:03 AM PST by preacher (A government which robs from Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.)
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To: AFret.

ObamaCare heaped additional problems on state and local governments. Local governments operate many medical facilities and ObamaCare imposed new rules on these facilities that cost money.

Consequently, the price of the medical center municipal bonds have dropped by 15 to 20% in the past few months.

AA rated medical center municipal bonds now yield 5.5 to 5.75%.


30 posted on 12/24/2010 11:20:24 AM PST by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: Bullish; CJ Wolf; houeto; Quix; B4Ranch; Whenifhow; Silentgypsy; blam; FromLori; Lurker; ...
CNBC-cheerleading-the-lost-game ping.

"Economic Holocaust" ping.

Increasing volume ping list watching the slow motion Economic Holocaust.

FReepmail me if you want on or off
The Comedian's "Economic Holocaust" ping list...


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

31 posted on 12/24/2010 11:20:46 AM PST by The Comedian (Government: Saving people from freedom since time immemorial.)
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To: The Comedian

HMMMMMMMMMMMM


32 posted on 12/24/2010 11:23:53 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: AFret.
Bottom line...In order to borrow our money, the municipalities must purchase and maintain insurance on the bonds they are selling. That is why they are so safe.

They are only as safe as the insurance they bought. Will the insurance entity be able to cover multiple defaults?

33 posted on 12/24/2010 11:30:17 AM PST by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: AFret.
Muni Bonds are the second safest investment in the country,the only safer investment is Government bonds”.

LOL. Until they aren't. Do you know what a black swan is?

Or, to echo the comment above, how many municipal bonds have to fail before their insurance fails as well?

34 posted on 12/24/2010 11:32:49 AM PST by DeaconBenjamin (A trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're NOT talking real money)
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To: RegulatorCountry; AFret.
Here's a list of 16 US candidates from the Financial Post of Canada: 16 U.S. cities facing bankruptcy if they don't make deep cuts
35 posted on 12/24/2010 11:38:47 AM PST by DeaconBenjamin (A trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're NOT talking real money)
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To: devane617

Just watched the segment..Thank you very much for forwarding.

I will place a call to my broker on Monday.

Thanks and Merry Christmas


36 posted on 12/24/2010 11:40:48 AM PST by AFret. ("Charlie don't surf ! ")
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To: DeaconBenjamin
Enough already, just get through the New Year, then let the sorry bunch sink. I have had enough of this gloom and doom, let's get on with it so that we can pick up the pieces and start over.The first thing we have to do is clean out Washington and the inbeded professional congress.
37 posted on 12/24/2010 11:47:21 AM PST by BooBoo1000 (" Let go, and Let God")
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To: DeaconBenjamin
>>>Do you know what a black swan is? <<<

Bingo....I think he's airborne and headed our way!

38 posted on 12/24/2010 12:20:21 PM PST by HardStarboard (I'm sure George and Dick had quiet smiles while watching the election results!)
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To: DeaconBenjamin
>>>Do you know what a black swan is? <<<

Bingo....I think he's airborne and headed our way!

39 posted on 12/24/2010 12:20:27 PM PST by HardStarboard (I'm sure George and Dick had quiet smiles while watching the election results!)
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To: preacher

My point exactly, ALL CONTRACTS SHALL EXPIRE at the End of the legislative term that authorized them. If we coupled that with :
All Government at all Levels Shall use The GAAP Standards.

Would end this crap overnight


40 posted on 12/24/2010 12:34:06 PM PST by eyeamok
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To: Presbyterian Reporter

Very interesting. You know your bonds. The bond explosion of the last 30 years has enabled all these counties, municipalities and other governmental entities (such as this hospital districts) to borrow much more than they should have.

This explosion in bonding was facilitated by Wall Street bond underwriters. They promoted the explosion in borrowing and bribed the Gov’t officials who chose their firm


41 posted on 12/24/2010 3:11:38 PM PST by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confucius)
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To: dennisw
True but you missed a point. Much of the money that financed the bond expansion came from Institutional investors who were controlling pension and retirement funds. A large of portion of peoples pension and retirement funds are invested in munis because of what should be their low risk.

Irresponsible and unsustainable municipal hiring and compensation packages are destroying the finances of the municipalities. In effect, they are damaging their own retirements savings

To complete the circle of disaster, the very same government employees who are destroying the finances of the municipalities, which will lead to bond defaults, have much of their pensions tied up in munis

42 posted on 12/24/2010 4:49:09 PM PST by rdcbn
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Dang.....I thought the title was about this guy.

Do I feel foolish. ;)

Merry Christmas everyone. May this night of nights bring joy and peace to all of you.

43 posted on 12/24/2010 4:55:26 PM PST by Wizdum
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To: RegulatorCountry; devane617; Eva; AFret.

“Safe” insurers like these two - they screwed the taxpayers big-time:

1. AIG
2. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC)


44 posted on 12/24/2010 6:00:36 PM PST by 4Liberty ( How do you spell "moral hazard"?: $ 19, 0 0 0, 0 0 0, 0 0 0, 0 0 0.)
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To: rdcbn

“”A large of portion of peoples pension and retirement funds are invested in munis””

____

There is no basis for a pension plan to own municipal bonds. A pension plan does not need tax free income nor does an IRA need tax free income as the IRS taxes the pension plan or IRA distributions as taxable income.


45 posted on 12/24/2010 6:05:25 PM PST by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: rdcbn

You can never say “the government”. We have the Feds, we have states and counties. We have cities. We have semi-governmental authorities and hospital districts that tax us and collect tolls with counties and states being on the hook for them

What you say is true for the most part. We have thousands of distinct governmental entities in America so policies vary widely as to how their workers pensions are funded. For example if CALPERS screws up mightily it has recourse and can go to California counties and cities and demand they make up for the shortfall. Many government workers are protected like this. Say the Munis in their pension’s portfolio take a dive....The pension fund can extract money from the taxpayer to make up for this. Some government workers have no such pension protection

The Feds will just print more money for their retired workers


46 posted on 12/24/2010 9:00:55 PM PST by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confucius)
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To: rdcbn
"To complete the circle of disaster, the very same government employees who are destroying the finances of the municipalities, which will lead to bond defaults, have much of their pensions tied up in munis "

But they also have written into their contracts that if the pension funds come up short, the taxing ability of the state must make it whole. And the courts back 'em up. Virtually all civil servant pension fund management is a state function.

Municipal bankruptcy does not negate pension liabilities.

yitbos

47 posted on 12/25/2010 1:11:01 AM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Bookmarked for future readings.


48 posted on 12/25/2010 4:36:14 AM PST by Ticonderoga34 (Free Obama's Birth Certificate!)
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To: PGR88

The left is worried about it they are freaking out over the loss of Build America Bonds which was their way of already partially bailing out these failing entities.

The Politics of the Blue State Bankruptcy

http://dollarcollapse.com/uncategorized/the-politics-of-the-blue-state-bankruptcy/

Personally I wouldn’t trust Bonds look at MBS’s people thought they were buying Triple AAA products turned out the ratings were a complete lie and they were filled with toxic loans so obviously you can’t trust the rating agency. Now Insurer’s are suing and although they won a recent victory BOA intends to fight them tooth and nail it will drag on for years.

Bank of America Loses Bid to Stop MBIA Using Statistics in Fraud Lawsuit

snippet..

“At Least 12 Claims

MBIA’s suit against Bank of America and its Countrywide unit is one of at least 12 claims brought by insurers in state and federal courts targeting issuers of mortgage-backed securities, including Deutsche Bank AG, Credit Suisse and GMAC Mortgage LLC. Government-owned mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and bond investors such as MetLife Inc., are also pursuing repurchase demands from originators of the securities.”

“MBIA paid $2.2 billion in guarantees on the disputed securities and may have to pay “hundreds of millions of dollars more” to reimburse investors who were to receive money from mortgages that went into default, according to court documents.

“Quality of Loans

MBIA said its reviews found that 91 percent of defaulted or delinquent loans had “material discrepancies from underwriting guidelines,” such as borrower incomes, credit scores or debt- to-income ratios. The 15 securities pools in the lawsuit consist of 368,000 home-equity lines of credit and second-lien loans that were insured and sold to investors from 2004 to 2007.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/bofa-loses-evidence-ruling-in-mbia-fraud-suit-over-21-billion-in-coverage.html?cmpid=yhoo


49 posted on 12/25/2010 8:21:47 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: Oatka

Yes lol they kept reassuring people everything was just fine and then boom it wasn’t.


50 posted on 12/25/2010 8:28:52 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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