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Oil refineries sue EPA over ethanol plan
GOPUSA ^ | January 4, 2011 | Ken Thomas (Associated Press)

Posted on 01/04/2011 8:03:13 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

WASHINGTON (AP) — A ruling by the Obama administration allowing the sale of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol is running into legal hurdles from trade groups opposing the plan.

The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association sued the Environmental Protection Agency on Monday over the decision to allow the sale of gasoline containing higher blends of corn-based ethanol, the second major group to protest the ruling.

The Obama administration said in October that gas stations could start selling the ethanol blend for vehicles built since the 2007 model year, increasing it from the current blend of 10 percent ethanol.

(Excerpt) Read more at gopusa.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: biofuels; boats; cattle; congress; corn; corruption; crude; drilling; e10; e15; e85; energy; enginedamage; engines; epa; ethanol; farmers; farming; fishing; food; gas; gasoline; government; inflation; lobbists; lobby; meat; nascar; obama; oil; outboards; refinery; voters
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To: seemoAR
In the state I live in, it was mandated that any gas station selling “Premium” gas, (91 Octane) must offer the fuel as a non-ethanol alternative. They did this because there are so many boats, snowmobiles and sports vehicles in this state that they know would be ruined by 10% Ethanol blended fuel.

It may also be a national mandate. Check out the content of any Premium 91 octane fuel in your area, if you are looking for Ethanol free fuel. I have to run it in my high performance 400 hp. 26’ aft-cabin cruiser,(Imagine the cost of replacing that engine!) also my snowblower/lawn tractor and all my small engines. I have had excellent results and no problems. (My toys are way too costly to risk and I refuse to pay for the damage that running Ethanol fuels would cause.)

51 posted on 01/05/2011 4:59:59 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

Indy cars run on ethanol and have for a few years.


52 posted on 01/05/2011 5:02:22 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

While I do believe that ethanol has a place, I do not agree with the E15 mandate.

Most engines can not run that blend very well if they are older.


53 posted on 01/05/2011 5:14:51 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: thackney
Regardless of that fact, the procedures they have to follow to run it are ridiculous, just as they are to run Methanol.

The burn characteristics are similar, as are the performance attributes of the engines. That is where it ends. They do develop much higher horsepower because they can develop compression ratios and valve trains that regular gasoline would surely melt down, due to the much lower octane/vapor pressure characteristics.

Methanol also has a higher vapor pressure than does Ethanol, which makes it a better fuel for developing horsepower.

54 posted on 01/05/2011 5:18:30 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Benchim

There is water in a lot of gas also. The difference is that an ethanol blend will dissolve the water, and the gas will just let it sit on the bottom of your tank till you suck it up and destroy you engine.

That is why the gas line anti freeze has methanol in it.


55 posted on 01/05/2011 5:20:27 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: seemoAR
You could test your gas with kits that are available on the Internet.

The test is pretty easy to do. Get a test tube or something similar you can see through. Add gasoline up to a mark, then add some water and shake. Any ethanol will mix with the water and separate from the gasoline. If after shaking, your gas line has lowered, that is how much ethanol blended with the water.

Ethanol is really hard on two stroke motors because it dilutes the effective ratio of the oil mixture. I overdose the oil by 10% or so to compensate. Not ideal because it will cause the engine to smoke and foul plugs.

For small four stroke engines, I always add sta-bil when I get the gas home. Unleaded gas starts to foul in as little as a week if not used. Also, 2-3 times per summer, I add a couple of ounces per gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil to a tank of gas. It will clean varnish off the jets and needle valves. A "liquid tuneup."

56 posted on 01/05/2011 5:22:21 AM PST by IamConservative (Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day. - Truman)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

You can (and some have) use ethanol in dragsters. My old company had one (great fun but they didn’t let me drive it!). The biggest issue is that most dragsters are set up for methanol.

And you can get 100% ethanol as easily as 100% methanol. Using a mole sieve is one way.


57 posted on 01/05/2011 5:25:32 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

sfl


58 posted on 01/05/2011 5:32:59 AM PST by phockthis
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To: redgolum

I would think that cost is the reason why many racing teams have converted to Ethanol. It stands to reason that Ethanol is more easily attained and at a lower cost. Methanol is made from Coal and I am sure that the demand for it is much lower now. They do burn similar. Methanol is still a better racing fuel than Ethanol. But that said, they absolutely do not belong in regular automobile engines, no matter how new or high tech. The cost and maintenance would be ridiculous.


59 posted on 01/05/2011 5:40:36 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Morpheus2009
how does adding ethanol to gasoline affect it’s combustion efficiency?

It takes 1.29 gal. of gas/diesel to make 1 gal. of ethanol.

1 gal. of gasoline has 115,000 BTU vs. 84,000 BTU for a gal. of ethanol. Ethanol is a losing game.

60 posted on 01/05/2011 5:59:03 AM PST by SunTzuWu (Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred. - Barzun)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

I have no doubt the Indy Ethanol switch was to generate advertising dollars from AMD and others.


61 posted on 01/05/2011 6:04:36 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

How can we find out if the gas we buy has ethanol? My car is 2002, my pick-up is 1979, my tractor 1948...and the thought that after all these years of faithful service their engines would be ruined....scares me. Plus...I have a chain saw, two tillers, a small generator.....

Is there a website that can inform you about who’s gas is really ‘all gas’?


62 posted on 01/05/2011 6:07:33 AM PST by Dudoight
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To: RoadTest

#2 yellow dent corn is an essential food?


63 posted on 01/05/2011 6:10:06 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

Methanol in the US is nearly always made by converting natural gas through a high-pressure catalytic process in the presence of steam.


64 posted on 01/05/2011 6:12:45 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Wombat Ark

I looked it over . I live in Maryland and no station within 50 miles on me.

A few on the Eastern shore , but none on the Western.


65 posted on 01/05/2011 6:12:49 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Mr. Lucky
#2 yellow dent corn is an essential food?

Aside from ethanol, is it used for anything else than the food supply chain?

Corn meal is made from #2 as is High Fructose Corn Syrup. HFCS has undesirable qualities but there is no doubt it is used in many foods and drinks in the US.

66 posted on 01/05/2011 6:20:26 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Venturer
All of Maryland and most of the surrounding area is legally required by the EPA to use Reformulated (Oxygenated) motor gasoline fuel. Unless there are some specialty service stations that supply gasoline for non-highway use, it is unlikely that any service station is selling non-methanol fuel unless they are still using MTBE.


67 posted on 01/05/2011 6:25:53 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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Make that: non-m ethanol fuel
68 posted on 01/05/2011 6:27:16 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

It is easier for me to check the gas before I use in in any engines I have. I don’t have to rely on a station telling the truth about the Ethanol in the gas. If the tests show that mess, I will not use it and I will scratch that station off my list. [:0)


69 posted on 01/05/2011 6:30:20 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: seemoAR

Keep in mind gasoline stations, especially discount (non-name brand) stations, do not always get their gasoline from the same source, especially if you are near a high population center that likely has multiple truck loading stations.


70 posted on 01/05/2011 6:35:12 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Wombat Ark

Thanks, thanks for the web site. There are at least two stations near me. Thanks again.


71 posted on 01/05/2011 6:37:27 AM PST by Dudoight
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To: Venturer

My Ethanol free gas station isn’t on the list either. I would imagine there are a lot more around the Country. The test can be used to locate them in your area.


72 posted on 01/05/2011 6:37:53 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: All
I should have added to the map above for reformulated gasoline requirements. That was only the federal requirements.

Washington, Oregon, California, Minnesota, Missouri and some counties in other states also require Oxygenated and often specifically ethanol added gasoline.

See more detailed map at:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Files/US_Gasoline_Map.pdf

73 posted on 01/05/2011 6:43:18 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
Mmmm. More high fructose corn syrup for me.

As an aside, less than 5% of the US corn harvest is consumed by this product (which is hardly an "essential" food).

74 posted on 01/05/2011 6:43:24 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: thackney

That is the reason I check the gas every time I get some for my mowers and chain saws. I have had far too much trouble with crappy gas.


75 posted on 01/05/2011 6:46:18 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: Mr. Lucky

It isn’t a large portion of the total corn market, but to take it away or significantly raise its price would have an affect on the food market.

Also, over half the US corn production is used in the US food supply chain.

Reference: http://api.org/aboutoilgas/upload/Energizing_America_Facts.pdf
Page 22


76 posted on 01/05/2011 6:48:26 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
Yes, but corn which is used for ethanol production is also used for livestock feed and, at least by ruminants, is used more efficiently. It's not either or.

My point is that the marketplace, not the government, should dictate how much corn is produced in the US, how the corn is produced and how it is used. While ethanol mandates are wrong, so would be ethanol prohibitions.

77 posted on 01/05/2011 7:05:06 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

“#2 yellow dent corn is an essential food?”

You got me. What’s #2 yellow dent corn?


78 posted on 01/05/2011 7:14:13 AM PST by RoadTest (Religion is a substitute for the relationship God wants with you.)
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To: Mr. Lucky

We agree. We should both write our representative and senators asking the mandates and subsidies be dropped.


79 posted on 01/05/2011 7:15:00 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: RoadTest

It’s the standard grade of “field corn”.


80 posted on 01/05/2011 7:18:56 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: 43north

Thank you so much for posting www.pure-gas.org. I looked up a place close to my home and will fill up today.


81 posted on 01/05/2011 7:21:24 AM PST by mickie
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To: thackney

Fair enough. Of course, our letters will also complain about accelerated depreciation and royalty payment relief available only to the oil industry, right?


82 posted on 01/05/2011 7:28:59 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: mickie

Would you mind reporting back if the station you saw on the list has an ethanol sticker on it?

Chester County, PA is all required by the EPA to use reformulated gasoline.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm#required


83 posted on 01/05/2011 7:29:17 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Mr. Lucky

Along with the very high tax rates paid, of course.

You do pay about 4 times your profits in taxes, right?

ExxonMobil Corp - 2009 Annual Report
http://thomson.mobular.net/thomson/7/3095/4222/document_0/XOM_SAR09.pdf
Page 38 - Summary Statement of Income
(millions of dollars)

Total revenues = 310,586

Sales-based taxes = 25,936
Other taxes = 34,819
Income taxes = 15,119
Total taxes = 75,874 = 24.4% of Revenues

Net income = 19,280 = 6.2% of Revenues

- - - - - - - -

Also royalty rates should match those of solids mining right? There really is no difference as the extraction of resources. So royalties would go to - Zero?


84 posted on 01/05/2011 7:50:29 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

I’ll check....going to Shell station in Gap.


85 posted on 01/05/2011 8:06:55 AM PST by mickie
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To: mickie

I believe that is Lancaster county. It won’t have the EPA requirement.

It has been over 20 years since I lived in Philly, so I might have the counties wrong.


86 posted on 01/05/2011 8:12:50 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
The taxes you report are not US raxes.

Actually, I pay infinitely higher US taxes on my US earnings than does Exxon-Mobil. For the year 2009, Exxon-Mobil posted earnings of $45.2 Billion, but paid no US income taxes. While I'm heartbroken that Exxon-Mobil finds it so expensive to do business in foreign sh*tholes, requiring US taxpayers to continue to subsidize that activity is bad policy.

87 posted on 01/05/2011 8:17:44 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky
No US taxes? I don't believe that. You will have to show me.

Since about 75% of EOM revenue comes from overseas, I would expect most of their taxes to be paid the same.

88 posted on 01/05/2011 8:26:16 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Google on the term: “Exxon-Mobil paid no 2009 US income taxes”.


89 posted on 01/05/2011 8:43:11 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

ExxonMobil 2009 Financial & Operating Review
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/11/115024/XOM_2009F&O.pdf

Page 74 - Upstream breakdown of cost showing different US Taxes Paid

The same can be located for downstream and chemical.


90 posted on 01/05/2011 8:44:13 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: seemoAR
Thanks for the information about the ethanol test kit for gasoline.

With the cost of repair to a chain saw at $100 or more.

The cost to service a fishing motor at $85 per hour.

$105 per hour to repair the generator on a motor home.

The lawn mower repair shop was a bargain at $65 per hour, but they went bankrupt.

To test gasoline before I buy it for all of my small gas motors makes sense to me.

Here on FR there was a story about an automobile dealership that was having fuel related problems that they could not solve. They bought a ethanol test kit and found samples of E10 gasoline that contained up to 21% ethanol.

With a $0.45 per gallon subsidy per gallon of ethanol it is my guess that some where along the supply system there are some unscrupulous people that will turn E10 into E12, E14, E17, E21 or who knows what. Then you and I are stuck with the repair bills.

Again thanks for the information.

91 posted on 01/05/2011 8:52:28 AM PST by TYVets
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To: Mr. Lucky

...Exxon did indeed pay substantial income taxes to the U.S. Treasury in 2009, and that it overpaid taxes in 2008.

...mistake was in thinking that these figures somehow reflected actual tax benefits and liabilities. So what we should have written was that ExxonMobil “recorded” no U.S. income taxes for 2009 instead of “paid.”

...And for all you commenters outraged that Exxon isn’t paying taxes in the U.S., don’t worry, it is. Our article only focused on income taxes, but it’s worth noting that the 10-k also records $7.7 billion in other taxes in the U.S.

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/04/07/exxon-says-it-does-pay-u-s-income-taxes/


92 posted on 01/05/2011 8:52:57 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: TYVets

The solution is to run the motors out of gas. Don’t fill them or pour the unused gas out. When the job is done, let the motor run until the gas runs out.


93 posted on 01/05/2011 8:55:46 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. D.E. +12 .....( History is a process, not an event ))
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To: TYVets
Any recommendations as to which kits work? Costs of kits, supplies etc?

This is from the pure-gas.org website. I have not tried it with known fuel types, but I plan to.

Can I test gas myself to see if it contains ethanol?

Yes, and it's quite easy to do. Inexpensive fuel-testing kits are widely available, or you can just do it yourself: (1) pour a small amount of water into a narrow jar (an olive jar works great) and mark the water level with a Sharpie; (2) add the fuel to around a 10:1 fuel:water ratio; (3) shake well, let settle for a few minutes; (4) see if the water level has risen above the mark. If it has risen, it has combined with ethanol from the fuel.

94 posted on 01/05/2011 8:56:18 AM PST by CodeJockey (Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet he invented. Oh, the irony!)
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To: Mr. Lucky
DDG is actually much better to feed cattle than regular corn. That is the real use for ethanol production, much better cattle feed.

It is also what drives long term viability of the ethanol plants.

95 posted on 01/05/2011 8:59:06 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum

People who actually understand Corn, ethanol and cattle feeding are not permitted to post on these sorts of threads.


96 posted on 01/05/2011 9:02:07 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: redgolum

People who actually understand Corn, ethanol and cattle feeding are not permitted to post on these sorts of threads.


97 posted on 01/05/2011 9:02:26 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: thackney

OK, how much US income tax does Exxon-Mobil claim that it actually paid in 2009?


98 posted on 01/05/2011 9:04:03 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: vette6387

“Ethanol has a higher Octane Rating, but much lower heat capacity per gallon. So your car will not be as prone to knock ( now that there’s no lead antiknock in gasoline). With the lower heat content, to produce the same power as it would with straight gasoline, your car’s computer has to add fuel to maintain the power level. This is what’s so stupid about ethanol. It takes more energy to produce it and it takes more of it to propel you down the road.”

Makes some sense, given that MBTE has been available instead for quite some time to prevent the knocking.


99 posted on 01/05/2011 9:06:50 AM PST by Morpheus2009
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To: Mr. Lucky
#2 yellow dent corn is an essential food?

Yes... it is for most of the animals that wind up on our dinner table.

100 posted on 01/05/2011 9:15:02 AM PST by CodeJockey (Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet he invented. Oh, the irony!)
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