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Oil refineries sue EPA over ethanol plan
GOPUSA ^ | January 4, 2011 | Ken Thomas (Associated Press)

Posted on 01/04/2011 8:03:13 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

WASHINGTON (AP) — A ruling by the Obama administration allowing the sale of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol is running into legal hurdles from trade groups opposing the plan.

The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association sued the Environmental Protection Agency on Monday over the decision to allow the sale of gasoline containing higher blends of corn-based ethanol, the second major group to protest the ruling.

The Obama administration said in October that gas stations could start selling the ethanol blend for vehicles built since the 2007 model year, increasing it from the current blend of 10 percent ethanol.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: biofuels; boats; cattle; congress; corn; corruption; crude; drilling; e10; e15; e85; energy; enginedamage; engines; epa; ethanol; farmers; farming; fishing; food; gas; gasoline; government; inflation; lobbists; lobby; meat; nascar; obama; oil; outboards; refinery; voters
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To: Wombat Ark; enough_idiocy; meyer; Normandy; Whenifhow; TenthAmendmentChampion; Clive; scripter; ...
A state-by-state list of ethanol-free gasoline stations.
Thanx !


Beam me to Planet Gore !

41 posted on 01/05/2011 12:58:46 AM PST by steelyourfaith (ObamaCare Death Panels: a Final Solution to the looming Social Security crisis ?)
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To: Skepolitic

That’s all nice, but mostly non-sequiturs of why there is ethanol in gasoline.

The real reason why ethanol was blended into gasoline was that the prior oxygenate, MTBE, was found to be responsible for contaminating ground water supplies where underground tanks leaked. So MTBE became a liability for refiners.

The EPA requires there to be an oxygenate additive in gasoline, so the next choice was ethanol. Modern closed-cycle EFI engines with O2 sensors in the exhaust stream don’t actually *need* any oxygenate additive in the fuel at all, but hey, we’re dealing with the environmentalists here who believe that without oxygenates that the LA basin would go back to the days of the 70’s, when you couldn’t see Mt. Wilson from Pasadena.

The reason why cars get worse mileage with ethanol in their fuel is that US automotive engineers can’t seem to remove their heads from their rectums and use the added octane boost to increase the compression ratio of the engine. Oddly enough, Ferrari was able to produce a 500HP high end sports car that gets better mileage on E85 than on pure gasoline.... just as any engineer who doesn’t have his head up his ass could do.

This cranial/rectal inversion that seems to run rampant in Detroit also seems to prevent them from delivering a small turbodiesel engine package that produces 50+ MPG vehicles as they have in Europe. Instead, they’re busy chasing utter twaddle like the Chevy Volt.

42 posted on 01/05/2011 2:14:24 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Skepolitic

No, they’re not. What utter nonsense.

The corn grown that gets put into ethanol is no different than the corn grown for cattle feed, or the corn grown for export. There is no special fertilization done for corn grown for ethanol production.

43 posted on 01/05/2011 2:18:39 AM PST by NVDave
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To: CSI007; Morpheus2009

It is also hydroscopic, meaning it attracts moisture out of the air. Water in gasoline is very bad for engines. (Water injection in used in certain high performance engines as a coolant. Those engines are not running economically while being injected with water.)

44 posted on 01/05/2011 2:52:43 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
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To: NVDave

On diesels, the EPA’s particulate matter regulations have really done a number on trucks and heavy diesels the last few years. Some companies (including Mitsubishi) have actually halted production of trucks for the US market until the EPA got its regs finalized to a point where something could be designed to comply with it. Then the regs will change again.

I have always thought that MPG was a very poor measure of efficiency. There is nothing there to account for the load being moved. Under this system, a semi moving 80000lb of freight at 4MPG is less efficient than a Prius moving a 160lb guy at 40MPG. Is the Prius 10 times as efficient as the semi, or is the semi 50 times as efficient as the Prius.
Could this be why cars are delivered on trucks??

45 posted on 01/05/2011 3:51:17 AM PST by Hiryusan
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To: TYVets

This is the one I bought. No, I don’t work for them. {:0)

It is fairly easy to use. I don’t know how accurate it is. it did show no Ethanol in gas I bought at my local country store. They did advertise their gas to be free of alcohol. I tested a sample from a major station that had the 10% or less sign. That test indicated 5%. That last gas smelled a lot different also.

46 posted on 01/05/2011 4:06:21 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: CSI007
You are correct about the engine damage and reduced combustion potential however, Ethanol does not lower combustion temperatures. It lowers exhaust gas temperatures instead. It also lowers vapor pressures which causes incomplete combustion and part of the ethanol leaves the cylinders unburned.

This sets up the dissolution of the lubricating oils on the cylinder walls, which causes rapid engine wear or damage. The higher the percentage of Ethanol, the more damage it causes. The only remedy to counter this would be to directly mix lubricating oil in the fuel.

Racing engines that run on methanol would surely seize up if they did not do this. Methanol also attracts moisture and creates jells, flaking in the fuel system, rapidly corrodes aluminum blocks and heads and even a sand-like material that destroys fuel injector systems.

Racing teams that use Methanol, must completely flush the fuel systems after every race. They cannot let it sit still very long or it will turn to jelly and destroy the engine's aluminum parts.

Methanol is made from coal and is much dryer than Ethanol which is why it is the only Alcohol based fuel that can be run as a direct fuel for racing engines.

Ethanol is bad, bad stuff to be mixing in our high cost vehicles, and the reaction it causes when it comes in contact with Benzene and several other chemicals in gasoline does far more damage than any benefit it might offer.

47 posted on 01/05/2011 4:31:43 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Skepolitic

The enviro-nazis learned nothing from MTBE. They just move on to the next mode of destruction.

48 posted on 01/05/2011 4:39:36 AM PST by Carley (PRINTING OPINION, IGNORING THE FACTS......the msm!!!)
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To: Brilliant

How would your company be hurt by being forced to sell products with 15% composition made by a competitor?

49 posted on 01/05/2011 4:52:22 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

In a world where corn is essential food, it would be legitimate to BAN ETHANOL use in vehicles.

50 posted on 01/05/2011 4:57:55 AM PST by RoadTest (Religion is a substitute for the relationship God wants with you.)
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To: seemoAR
In the state I live in, it was mandated that any gas station selling “Premium” gas, (91 Octane) must offer the fuel as a non-ethanol alternative. They did this because there are so many boats, snowmobiles and sports vehicles in this state that they know would be ruined by 10% Ethanol blended fuel.

It may also be a national mandate. Check out the content of any Premium 91 octane fuel in your area, if you are looking for Ethanol free fuel. I have to run it in my high performance 400 hp. 26’ aft-cabin cruiser,(Imagine the cost of replacing that engine!) also my snowblower/lawn tractor and all my small engines. I have had excellent results and no problems. (My toys are way too costly to risk and I refuse to pay for the damage that running Ethanol fuels would cause.)

51 posted on 01/05/2011 4:59:59 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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Indy cars run on ethanol and have for a few years.

52 posted on 01/05/2011 5:02:22 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

While I do believe that ethanol has a place, I do not agree with the E15 mandate.

Most engines can not run that blend very well if they are older.

53 posted on 01/05/2011 5:14:51 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: thackney
Regardless of that fact, the procedures they have to follow to run it are ridiculous, just as they are to run Methanol.

The burn characteristics are similar, as are the performance attributes of the engines. That is where it ends. They do develop much higher horsepower because they can develop compression ratios and valve trains that regular gasoline would surely melt down, due to the much lower octane/vapor pressure characteristics.

Methanol also has a higher vapor pressure than does Ethanol, which makes it a better fuel for developing horsepower.

54 posted on 01/05/2011 5:18:30 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Benchim

There is water in a lot of gas also. The difference is that an ethanol blend will dissolve the water, and the gas will just let it sit on the bottom of your tank till you suck it up and destroy you engine.

That is why the gas line anti freeze has methanol in it.

55 posted on 01/05/2011 5:20:27 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: seemoAR
You could test your gas with kits that are available on the Internet.

The test is pretty easy to do. Get a test tube or something similar you can see through. Add gasoline up to a mark, then add some water and shake. Any ethanol will mix with the water and separate from the gasoline. If after shaking, your gas line has lowered, that is how much ethanol blended with the water.

Ethanol is really hard on two stroke motors because it dilutes the effective ratio of the oil mixture. I overdose the oil by 10% or so to compensate. Not ideal because it will cause the engine to smoke and foul plugs.

For small four stroke engines, I always add sta-bil when I get the gas home. Unleaded gas starts to foul in as little as a week if not used. Also, 2-3 times per summer, I add a couple of ounces per gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil to a tank of gas. It will clean varnish off the jets and needle valves. A "liquid tuneup."

56 posted on 01/05/2011 5:22:21 AM PST by IamConservative (Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day. - Truman)
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You can (and some have) use ethanol in dragsters. My old company had one (great fun but they didn’t let me drive it!). The biggest issue is that most dragsters are set up for methanol.

And you can get 100% ethanol as easily as 100% methanol. Using a mole sieve is one way.

57 posted on 01/05/2011 5:25:32 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks


58 posted on 01/05/2011 5:32:59 AM PST by phockthis
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To: redgolum

I would think that cost is the reason why many racing teams have converted to Ethanol. It stands to reason that Ethanol is more easily attained and at a lower cost. Methanol is made from Coal and I am sure that the demand for it is much lower now. They do burn similar. Methanol is still a better racing fuel than Ethanol. But that said, they absolutely do not belong in regular automobile engines, no matter how new or high tech. The cost and maintenance would be ridiculous.

59 posted on 01/05/2011 5:40:36 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Morpheus2009
how does adding ethanol to gasoline affect it’s combustion efficiency?

It takes 1.29 gal. of gas/diesel to make 1 gal. of ethanol.

1 gal. of gasoline has 115,000 BTU vs. 84,000 BTU for a gal. of ethanol. Ethanol is a losing game.

60 posted on 01/05/2011 5:59:03 AM PST by SunTzuWu (Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred. - Barzun)
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