Skip to comments.Panel says women should be allowed in combat units
Posted on 01/14/2011 3:48:25 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A military advisory commission is recommending that the Pentagon do away with a policy that bans women from serving in combat units, breathing new life into a long-simmering debate.
(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...
The Israelis do NOT put women in combat roles. See my post #18 and the linked article. Israeli women are the trainers and do support functions, but they are not sent into combat. They do get combat TRAINING, because in the final extreme they will be the ones defending the children if the Arabs break through the Israeli lines.
Let’s see, cut the Army by 27,000, USMC by 20,000. Replace many of the men in the combat units with women, presumably both gay and straight, plus gay men.
The Jihadies, the NK’s and the Chinese must be laughing themselves silly.
Same as happened to some of those women captured by the Iraqis in Desert Storm and the second Gulf war.
First it was women in submarines. ANY such boat that goes up against a boat operated by an all-male crew, will be severely at disadvantage.
Then it was welcoming open homosexuality (repeal of don't ask, don't tell) in the ranks. Again, it can only serve to weaken a fighting force.
Social engineering? Maybe. Deliberate sabotage? Certainly.
No, they tried that in '48, didn't work out well. Women serve in support roles, some of them in combat support and some in training men for combat roles, such as armored vehicle driver and gunner.
You say that Israeli women soldiers are not sent into front line combat but are trained to be sent into combat as a last resort?Well its just not that simple.There is a whole unit of front line female infantry, called the Caracal Battalion.
I do not think that America needs full unit female combat soldiers either. The political correctness surrounding their deployment and use would get them all killed very quickly, or alternatively get many others killed.
Israeli Women Volunteer For Combat
October 28, 2009: Israel has, over the last few decades, expanded the number of combat jobs women can volunteer for. Israel conscripts men (for three years) and women (for two years). But women have more exemptions (especially marriage). Women who volunteer for combat duty are hard core, because not only will they have to undergo some hard training, but will have to serve three years on active duty, plus several years as reservists. This is necessary to justify the longer training required.
Like many other countries, Israeli military police units contain men and women. Same with dog handlers, border guards, artillery units and some search and rescue units. Women have long served as flight instructors, as well as trainers for tank crews.
There is also a largely female infantry unit, the Caracal Battalion. Part of the 512th Brigade in Southern Command, the battalion was formed in 2000 to provide a place for women who wanted to be in the infantry. It’s a light infantry unit that mainly serves along the Jordanian or Egyptian borders. The battalion took part in safeguarding Israeli civilians and troops during the 2005 evacuation of Gaza. Initially, about half the troops in Caracal were female, as are most of the officers and NCOs, and, usually, the commander. Now about 90 percent of the Caracal members are women. While many troops see Caracal as a publicity stunt and a sop to the feminists, the unit has performed well, and has a reputation as a non-nonsense and reliable outfit.
During their independence war in 1948, Israel had female infantry units, but these were withdrawn. Not because the women couldn’t fight, but because Arab units facing them became more fanatical, and less likely to surrender, when they realized they were fighting women. Conservative Jewish clergy in Israel want women to be barred from combat jobs, while Arab radicals are urging more women to get involved in terrorism operations, including suicide bombings.
So contrary to popular belief, women are indeed voluntarily deployed in Israel in full combat infantry roles.
That would be OK, mostly, IF they would make *all* the requirements the same as they were in say, 1960 for the men.
But in reality that won’t happen. Women would still be underrepresented, and so the standards would be different for them, or they’ll make the standards the same for everyone, but they’d be ones most of the women could pass.
more insanity PING
HELL NO, this worse than gays in the military. At least men are men under fire. Now they have to look after the girls? This is more social engineering to make our armed forces politically correct!
Yup... and no woman is going to have the stamina to persist under fire... to say nothing of life in a foxhole. This is beyond stupid.
Israeli women are given training to defend themselves. That’s are far as it goes.
I’ve served under female NCOs and officers I’d follow into battle.
There is a bit more to combat than "arms". To mention a few:
1 - Bringing heavy ammo boxes over in a hurry.
2 - Getting the big wounded guys to safety.
3 - Continuing the fight even when the ammo is gone.
4 - Climbing up everything you can think of with ones's pack and a few pieces of "common property" as well.
5 - Changing a big tire while under duress.
6 - Making big piles of sandbags.
7 - Digging for China in gravel with enough room around the bore hole for crew served weapons.
8 - Dragging heavy stuff everywhere for any reason.
Folks are welcome to expand the list.
What percentage of women have the muscle strength to handle combat? 1%?
Standards will be lowered, and women will then be killed where a man would not have been...
“Skill at arms is a human thing, I need to trust a Person, without any other qualification.”
You need to trust they can do COMBAT DUTY, which the vast majority of women are not strong enough to handle!
Israeli women are given training to defend themselves. Thats are far as it goes.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not true. They are fully trained as infantry soldiers in the Caracal Battalion of Israel’s SOuthern Command , deployed on the Southern border in active, direct combat duty to secure the border constantly.No small task.See my posts 56 and 57 , this thread.
But I do not favor all women combat units in the US forces.
Our women to do not have the spirit and dedication to such sacrifice as Israeli women do as a matter of their history.
It is a desperate history, in which their whole race was threatened with extinction, and American women have no such motivation.........yet. Perhaps Obama will give it to them in due course, but they do not have that yet.
If Obama has his way, we will be invaded by Venezualans and their Muslim allies, with the help of the Chinese.Then maybe US women will have the historical motivation to enter combat as some Israeli women voluntarily do in the Caraal Battalion. American women have never had the blood lust to volunteer for combat as infantry soldiers, not even the most ardent feminists here in the USA have called for it.Its butcher’s work and a butcher’s bill to be paid in female blood.Thats too high a price for even the likes of US feminists, who would rather continue to let US men do the dying to pay the butchers bill of combat.
Israeli women are not on frontline combat units. They are on the home reserve.
You are absolutely right. I do not believe that women can function as members of a combat unit, that the integrity of the unit will be compromised when the focus inevitably turns to protecting the women, their lives and their sensibilities, and that under the pressure of battle utter disaster is likely. A (small) number of women might make the grade in a practical sense, but as you point out, there is much more to consider.
The PC brigades will not go away on their own, they need to be made irrelevant first. They need to recognize, once and for all, that the services are not a sociology project or a political experiment. This needs to be gotten out of the way before:
A- PC assumptions become institutionalized,
B- The shit hits the fan in a big way somewhere in the world.
The feminists out there are for combat service for women in the same vein as Charlie Rangel was for the draft; to eventually use the cause as a public relations weapon to discredit the armed services and turn a greater part of the public to the pacifist view.
What combat have they seen?
The Caracal Battalion os a front line Combat Unit, about 90% women, according to the IDF organizational charts.
I can’t change facts my FRiend.
They are deployed on Israel’s Southern border and do a far better job than we do on our SOuthern border with Mexico, IMHO.
They do not have a lot of combat history only having been formed in 2000, but they did take part in the evacuation of Gaza in 2005, many under fire.That was a non combat operation, which as you may know, had combat.
What else can I say? Sheesh. The Israelis have women posted in fromt line combat positions along the SOuthern Border of Israel.Thats a stone cold fact.
Just google Caracal Battalion and see for yourself.
Got your dander up eh? LOL.
Google “Caracal Battalion” and read for yourself.
I saw them engaged in removing settlers.
Having a unit described as being combat ready and actually engaging in combat are two different things.
I have never been hasty to see any military unit have to pay the butchers bill.The Caracal Battalion is merely 10 years old, and perhaps only 5 years at near full strength.The battalion has been built slowly and carefully , as all good units should be. I am sure they will be bloodied soon enough, the way things are going
in the ME.
Give it a few more years, and we will see how they discharge their duties.
I do not approve of women in combat, but through out history there have been female cadres who engaged in combat.
I do not think women by their very nature are meant to take life, they are meant to create it. That is their primry role in the continuity of human kind. But for those who are combat designated,I wish nothing more than they have the preparation necessary to have a fighting chance to survive.
It will be a sad day indeed if political correctness designates American women to the role of full combat.I hope never to see it.
Your Master Chief friend is right. I was in the Navy for six years as an officer, late 80s.
I remember reading a Naval Institute Proceedings article about the challenges of a ship’s captain dealing with a mixed crew. In exasperation, he asked for help from his Command Master Chief who replied, “Sir, they’re blanking like rabbits down there and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it.” If I remember correctly, the Captain was relieved for his actions trying to instill some discipline in his crew.
(I just deleted two whole paragraphs of sea stories about what I saw. What does it matter?)
We (Americans) elected these empty suits who couldn’t hold regular jobs. We continue to elect the same bunch over and over again. I pray that our country can be fixed but I’m not optimistic.
BTW, tell you Master Chief friend that Chief Petty Officers still run the Navy. We need their help more than ever.
Six to twelve months before the draft is re-instituted.
My God. Are you serious? “Girls should be given a chance.”
Girls should be given a chance with our national defense at stake? Please.
As a service academy graduate and former officer, I’ve often been asked for advice about the military from young people. For the first time in my life, I will urge anyone interested in a military career to consider choosing otherwise because of the RUINOUS dictates placed upon our men and women service members by the idiotic, empty suits in Washington.
I’m assuming you’ve never served in the military. Maybe you were being sarcastic, if so, I guess I can understand the humor.
Is seven plus one your age?
It doesn’t take a young, impressionable female long to realize that there’s a great deal of money to be made on the free market.
It doesn’t take a young, impressionable male or any male, for that matter, long to figure out that the free market provides the greatest return on funds invested.
USS Yellowstone skipper realized that fact back in the 80s.
Cultural Marxism is out to destroy the difference between women and men. It is to kill the Natural Familythe primary institution in every society which provides the best emotional and physical structure for raising children. They are destroying children and their homesthe safe place which forms their fundamental worldview.
Marxists want children away from parents. They want children to grow up destroying the Judeo/Christian paradigm which says God made man and woman. They are different. Women are nurturers by nature. Men are protectors by nature. If they teach and brainwash that the idea that Gods design is wrong, then the whole Bible is garbage.
That is why they push homosexualityto get rid of the concept of Natural Law Theory. It is the bases of common sense....PC from cultural Marxism destroys common sense....they cant have logic and reason because their ideology is based on The Big Lie. It cant stand debate. That is why they are forcing hate speech laws....to prevent logic.
With logic and reason, a destructive, dysfunctional behavior would never be allowed to be promoted to young children as good and normal or to the military which is saying that honor and character mean nothing in a military WHEN IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT. Homosexual behavior is the opposite of honorable....never could be anything but selfish, lust. It is demeaning to human life and nihilism.
Marxists want no difference between men and women....all is the same. What is the difference between homosexual sex and heterosexual sex. They say (with no logic)nothing. They are equal. It is to destroy the structure which creates a safe way to transmit culture to kids....because they want to form the thinking of your children and grandchildrenmake them into useful idiots who will never have a rational thought.
All worth repeating
Sign me up, they still have 10% men in the battalion.
WIll Israel be invaded from the South? Maybe.Obama has a lot of stuff happening in Jordon and the West Bank.Our military is training a Palestinian”police force” there.But their training is combat related.
Over the years,how many needless deaths-in life or death situations that demand upper body strength for successful outcomes-have resulted due to counter-biological Leftist delusions of the scientifically rejected physical equality of the sexes?
Yes,a rhetorical question for sure—but now it gets to be asked of our military as well.
Well for the women and children who live in a country during a war they are already ON the front line. Talk to people who lived in Dresden, etc., during WWII. Bombs all around day and night. A friend of mine was a little boy in Germany during WWII and he talked of hearing bombs falling all around his town at night.
Speaking of innuendos, females of their three sexual orientations (or more) are desperately needed in every combat unit. Just their mere presence will go a long way toward setting a tolerant and sensitive example for the one or two straight men left per battalion who might otherwise create a hostile combat atmosphere for their gay brothers-in-arms. You know how vicious those straight men can get!
Finally! We can stop our brutal armed forces from shooting people and damaging property. Can't we all just get along?
Affirmative Action, non-normative PING
Yep. How quickly they forget the multiple rapes of Pvt Lynch in Iraq. No one wants to talk about that.
Get your facts straight regarding the difference between Combat; CS;CSS.
Nice try. I do not know from what point you are arguing from. But I did 20 years, so I know better.
My collegue of many years was directly involved in her rescue. Otherwise, the facts are self evident:
1. She wasn’t in Ft Bliss.
2. The combat support unit to which she was assigned was in direct support of maneuver elements (not third echelon or depot level maintenance).
3. She was repeatedly raped by Iraquis.
4. In convoy operations, all are riflemen. Gee, that’s Army and Marine doctrine; straight out of the FM and FMFM.
5. The enemy doesn’t give a rip about the designation of your unit or MOS. If your show your a$$ on the battlefield, you will be engaged. When you attach a CSS unit to a combat unit: it becomes part of that combat unit.
6. DoD has progressively overstepped US law allowing females to be in combat. She, and the other native American female that died SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE.
As it stands, Jessica, or the family of Lori Piestewa can sue the living crap out of DoD, and they probably are totally unaware of it.
Does anyone know who General Casey — he who said a loss of diversity would be worse than the slaughter of all those people at Fort Hood — comes down on this?
I never served, so I generally defer to those who have (especially in combat units) on this. That combined with my own view leads me to oppose this strongly. What I’ve never heard a supporter of women in combat sufficiently address is the scenario where a wounded soldier must be carried or pulled from danger. The number of women who could carry a man would be almost zero, and a woman would not be able to drag a man (or another woman) as quickly as a man could.
I think the idea that standards could be maintained is a fantasy. If tough standards are maintained, then there will only be a handful of women who can pass muster. Therefore either the standards themselves will be attacked as outdated and sexist and be jettisoned, or the standards will remain on the books but will be completely ignored, with the Pentagon’s unofficial approval.
But this policy change will almost certainly happen. If there was a law prohibiting women from frontline combat units then it would probably be safe with the new House. But since all that is apparently required is Pentagon approval, then I would fully expect this since it is now Obama’s Pentagon.
When I first heard about women on ships I said that the smart ones would come back wealthy and the dumb ones would come back pregnant. I guarantee this is what has happened. Confine a bunch of young women on a ship with a bunch of sailors aged seventeen up to forty and what do you expect? It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what will happen.
" But I did 20 years, so I know better." I did 25 years which signifies that my ego is less fragile yours. :-)
I only stated it to signify in this virtual world that
I’m not nick the new guy that hasn’t LIVED the topic, and gave imput during two symposiums on this issue. It’s a credibility issue in a medium where credibility is hard to determine.
I don’t start with the argument of combat MOS integration because the ammo in which the proponents are using, come from direct violations of US law. Just had a conversation last night with a Pentagon staffer as we were watching the Packers thump Atlanta. His argument: “but they have been in combat since the war started.” That is straight from the Pentagon. He fails to mention the adverse effects, and the fact that Army misled Congress.
Women have always served in theater: but not in maneuver elements. I’m not talking about general combat support (MASH units, etc). I am talking direct support and attachment to combat units. THAT is the argument.
My mention of my time in service has nothing to do with ego. I don’t subscribe to Freud and his use of ego, id and superego: he couldn’t get a handle on the complexities of the human soul because he rejected the Bible. Separate issue but if you choose to follow Freud and his atheistic approach: go right ahead.