Posted on 05/16/2011 4:40:20 AM PDT by marktwain
Law enforcement officials in Rock and Walworth counties are worried about pending legislation that would legalize the carrying of concealed weapons.
Rock County Sheriff Bob Spoden and Janesville Police Chief Dave Moore said concealed carry could risk public safety.
“I think it escalates every conflict that individuals are going to be involved in to a very dangerous level,” Spoden said. “I don’t think it will decrease the level of violence in Wisconsin. To the contrary, I think it will increase the level of violence in the state.”
Walworth County Sheriff David Graves expressed concern about how a concealed carry law would be implemented.
“We know it’s going to happen,” Graves said. “We just want to make it safe and workable to everybody.”
Carrying concealed weapons would be legalized under bills pending in the state Legislature. Wisconsin and Illinois are the only states that don't allow concealed carry. None of the bills would require training for carriers.
“My primary concern is for the safety of the officers in the field and the citizens they encounter,” Moore said. “From a police perspective, I would like the only people out in the public with guns to be trained police officers.”
Nik Clark, president of Wisconsin Carry, said people would be safer from criminals, and fewer crimes would be committed if concealed carry was legal.
“It’s a deterring factor,” Clark said. “It gives people the right to defend themselves.”
He said many law enforcement officials know they can’t protect everyone, and they favor the bills.
“There are a lot of officers that really do support the right to carry,” Clark said. “It’s sometimes just the leadership that does not.”
One bill would allow anyone to carry a concealed weapon except convicted felons, convicted domestic abusers and others qualifying for certain restrictions.
Another bill would require a five-year permit from the Wisconsin Department of Justice. People at least 21 would have to undergo a background check and pay fees.
Moore said people should have to undergo background checks, training and fingerprinting. He said they also should be photographed.
Moore believes carriers should be in a database to let law enforcement know if people might be armed. He said people also should have to tell law enforcement if they’re carrying.
Spoden said allowing concealed carry creates too many unknown risks.
“It is going to put a certain level of stress on every interaction a police officer has with the public,” Spoden said. “It is going to put a certain degree of uncertainty in every call that officer takes. We’ll have to assume that everyone we come in contact with is carrying a firearm.”
Clark said he supports the version of the bill that would not mandate permits, training or other requirements. He said gun owners already know how to handle firearms and don’t want to pay government fees.
“A lot of people don’t like the fact that they have to go register with the government if you want to carry a firearm,” Clark said. “It should be for everyone.”
The Wisconsin Chiefs of Police Association stated in a letter that violent criminals and people convicted of misdemeanor battery, stalking or sexual assault would be allowed to carry under the bill.
“This bill allows just about anyone to carry a loaded gun just about anywhere in public, even though research shows that allowing more people to carry guns in more places will lead to one thing—more tragedies,” said Stoughton Police Chief Greg Leck, president of the association.
“There is a reason Wisconsin's violent crime rate and firearm death rate is much lower than the national averages. It makes no sense to adopt the policies of states that have more crime, more violence and more gun deaths.”
Graves was reluctant to say where he stood on the issue. He’s waiting to see the first version of the bill that makes it through the Legislature before giving it a thumbs up or down.
“It’s too early to make a comment on it,” he said. “I’m not totally against concealed and carry.”
Graves said he’s leery about how the law will be structured. Graves wants a uniform system in place for all 72 Wisconsin counties to issue concealed carry permits.
Each county should not decide how permits are issued, he said.
“You don’t want 72 different cards,” he said. “That’s not good for law enforcement.”
Graves suggested that instead of each sheriff’s office handling the application and issuing permits, the state should set a standardized identification, such as a marking putting permit stamps on driver’s licenses, as it does motorcycle operating or the requirement to wear corrective lenses.
Delavan Police Chief Tim O’Neill said he supports the Wisconsin Chiefs of Police Association.
“It’s a feeling that we don’t need more guns on the street,” O’Neill said.
Spoden said the bills have been proposed with little discussion with law enforcement, who would enforce the law. He said the issue is not about gun rights.
“It’s really about safety,” Spoden said. “I think this bill is kind of reckless, and I think it’s going to endanger safety.”
LEGISLATORS ON CONCEALED CARRY
The Gazette asked area legislators for their positions on pending concealed carry legislation:
Rep.-elect David Craig, R-Big Bend:
“I support concealed and carry because it’s part of our Constitution. The Second Amendment guarantees our right to bear arms, and concealed and carry is contained in that amendment. From a practical standpoint, I believe it’s a good deterrent against criminal activity that preys on the innocent.”
Sen. Tim Cullen, D-Janesville:
Cullen said he will vote against concealed-carry legislation and what he calls the more aggressive version, constitutional carry.
“I think people who carry guns have rights, but people who do not carry guns have rights, too,” Cullen said. “I don’t see this legislation as intended to balance those two. I also think we need to listen to law enforcement, and I just don’t think that people in our society should be walking down streets or going into buildings and not knowing whether the people they come upon are armed or not.”
Cullen said he believes the Republicans will have their way on this issue, as they will with another current bill, the so-called voter ID bill. He questioned whether the right direction is to restrict the right to vote while expanding the right to carry concealed weapons.
“This is one of those classic clashes of rights,” Cullen said. “The general rule in our society, I think, has been that I have a right to do what I want do until it comes to the point that it interferes with your right.”
Society should try to balance those rights, and these bills make little attempt to do that, Cullen said.
Jon Erpenbach, D-Middleton:
Declined to comment
Sen. Neal Kedzie R-Elkhorn:
“Two versions of concealed-carry legislation have been introduced; one which requires licensing and one which does not. The non-licensing bill—commonly referred to as ‘constitutional carry’—is the truest measure which allows citizens to exercise their Second Amendment rights, and the bill I am currently supporting.
“However, I also have a record of supporting concealed-carry legislation that requires permits and other such standards, and certainly understand the arguments for the licensed concealed-carry bill. Both bills will be given appropriate scrutiny by the Legislature. In the end, I will support whichever bill can garner the necessary votes in which to pass.”
Rep. Joe Knilans, R-Janesville:
Knilans said he finds himself in the middle of two concealed carry proposals, one that doesn’t require a permit and weapons training and one that does.
If he ultimately supports the bill that requires permits, he said he wants to make sure permits issued to Wisconsin residents are valid in all other states that allow concealed carry. And he wants a system where fees for Wisconsin permits stay in Wisconsin.
On the training issue, Knilans believes people who are trained better understand the liability of carrying a weapon and restrict their carrying to situations where they feel threatened.
But he’s also concerned about trampling constitutional rights.
“I’m an advocate of some training, but the Second Amendment doesn’t say you have the right to bear arms if you’ve had training.”
If permitting and training become part of the law, Knilans said he wants to make sure they are uniform across the state to ensure that it’s not easier or more difficult to get a permit or train in different communities.
Sen. Mary Lazich R-New Berlin:
“I have consistently supported concealed-carry legislation, and I am a sponsor of the two conceal-carry bills before the Legislature. Concealed-carry legislation affirms law-abiding citizens’ the right to protect themselves.
“In the event a permit is required, I support the state Department of Justice issuing permits. The state Department of Justice’s administration of permits allows for uniformity and eliminates a local government mandate.”
Rep. Janis Ringhand, D-Evansville:
“As your state representative, I will defend your constitutional right to keep and bear arms. However, I also believe that firearms do not belong in places like our schools, businesses and recreational facilities. If we are going to allow citizens to carry concealed firearms, we must include certain safety precautions such as permits, background checks, and training.”
State Rep. Evan Wynn, R-Whitewater:
Wynn is a former U.S. Army paratrooper who characterizes himself as “very conservative” on constitutional issues. He’s cosponsoring Sen. Pam Galloway’s “constitutional carry” bill, which would allow concealed carry without fees or permits.
Wynn said he believes people should be allowed to carry weapons without being registered in police databases and that mandated training and permits for concealed carry would be extraneous and a government overreach.
“We don’t make people pass a speech 101 class to earn the freedom of speech, the First Amendment,” Wynn said.
Wynn said he’s reviewed concealed carry permit procedures in states such as New York, where fees and requirements vary by county but can include mental health screenings and months-long waiting periods for people who want to carry a concealed weapon.
“It makes people jump through so many hoops that they give up and don’t get a permit,” Wynn said.
Wynn indicated that weapons training for concealed carry should be optional.
“Usually, people don’t buy a gun unless they know how to use one,” he said.
The media template is claiming that “law enforcement” is against concealed carry, when in fact many police officers and sheriffs are for it. Selecting the people you choose to quote can have considerable effect on the story.
That is done all the time. Media always distorts the truth. Oh and the more doom and gloom the story is the better.
True, the media template is in place, but you have to wonder about these idiots that keep spouting this nonsense. Surely they know by now that the facts DON’T support their bullsqueeze.
There are quite a number of lying liberal political hack “police officials” in this country who roll over on their backs for their political masters.
In 30 years as a cop I never had a problem with an honest citizen CCW.
Rock County Sheriff Bob Spoden and Janesville Police Chief Dave Moore said concealed carry could risk public safety.
More risk then the 60 some bullets the SWAT team pumped into the guy in PIMA County?
The mentality of modern police officers is a greater threat to public safety.
Of ALL the people who should be able, and bound by duty, to examine a situation carefully by at least looking at the experience of states that have had the CCW in place for years and have over a million permitted citizens it would be a sheriff! Florida has had it for years and years, with well over a million CCW permits, and the statistics simply put the lie to the sheriff's statement.
There are just too many misstatements and too much spin in the article to address each of them. What a crock.
It's not the people with CCW permits that are the problem with guns, period. It's the people who are going to carry a gun regardless of the law, and will use it despite laws to the contrary. The criminal is still going to carry a gun, and no law aimed at law-abiding citizens is going to affect his or her decision to use it.
When was the last news report about someone legally carrying a concealed weapon using it and being convicted of a firearms crime that was the result of having a CCW permit? I'm sure there are some, but darned if I can recall any right off hand. AND YOU KNOW if it were happening the left wing press would be splashing it all over the front page and the airwaves! If people who legally carry firearms EVER use one in a crime the anti-gun crowd will make sure the whole country knows it.
A pro-CCW group needs to mount a campaign in every state where these misleading spin articles are published to damage the chances of carry legislation making the history of them across the country very clear. There simply is NO increase in violence or gun-related crimes in states that have CCW. Period.
No, because it creates a single point where a hostile future state administration can mess with permit issuance.
I prefer a system where the county sheriffs/police process applications, AND where you are not restricted to having ONLY your residential county process your application, but instead can have it processed by any dept who's interested in your fee.
Gee, someone with common sense! It's not what makes you feel good, it's not a matter of what is "safe", "acceptable" or "moral", it's about rights.
Reading it carefully, it seems to me that Cullen is making a false claim about rights, not supporting the right to keep and bear arms. There is no "clashes of rights" here. There is no right not to be offended. My right to bear arms doesn't take away any of your rights.
Cullen is trying to create "clashes of rights" where none exist. This has been one of the strategies for depriving us of our Constitutional rights for a long time.
Personally I don’t disagree with some of the ideas in this article. Things like mandatory training (including range time), background checks, standardized licensing, etc should be required. Having prerequisite requirements for concealed carry permits isn’t a violation of the 2nd Ammendment since the permitting process doesn’t interfere with firearms ownership. Public safety is a valid concern, and firearms ownership does carry certain responsibilities in that regard. However as long as a person with no criminal behavior can reasonably demonstrate an understanding of those responsibilities and prove that they’re capable of using a firearm in a way that doesn’t endanger themselves or others then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to carry.
Well, there probably isn't much that can be done about chiefs of police and street cops, but those sheriffs have to be elected. Any such statement should be grounds for being voted out.
"Selecting the people you choose to quote can have considerable effect on the story."
It's called "the new journalism" (i.e. the old propaganda).
And let me express my personal thanks for your yeoman efforts in posting these RKBA threads. "Ever Vigilant".
Yet another reminder that police are NOT your friends.
“Training” is a red herring.
Most defensive shootings occurr at ranges best measured in inches rather than feet.
The real reason to oppose carry laws is that it reduces the need for cops: and their salaries, pensions, etc....
Some "law enforcement". Are they finished being fitted for custom jack boots at the taxpayers' expense?
There was a time in our country when speaking openly about wanting to create a police state would hurt your political aspirations. I feel very old.
Ah, yes, but the ammendment speaks of bearing them, too.
In 30 years as a cop I never had a problem with an honest citizen CCW.
Some may say that the CHL is a "good citizen" card, at least in TX one needs a clean record, be current on their taxes and not be behind in child support payments.
Personally I am of the opinion that if a person is too dangerous to be able to enjoy their God given 2nd Amendment Rights, then they are probably too dangerous to be out in public.
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