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Posted on 07/19/2011 7:19:18 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama
You and I agree 110% on this issue.
National Constitutional Carry...no license/permission from any official agency required. No name records to be kept by private businesses that teach weapons safety or handling.
The Bill of Rights prohibition is fine and does not need a federal law to augment it. State by State we have got this worked down to a managable level (Illinois the exception) but if the Feds get in it, it will be corrupted later.
...shall not be infringed.
You can't possibly be serious with that statement! Manageable state by state? Try getting a permit in MA, NY City or NJ. Oh yeah and CA is such a pro-gun state. Do I really need a sarcasm tag? Do some research and you'll find that it's not "manageable" at all! Manageable would mean NO PERMIT REQUIRED.
Forgot to ask...who is this "we" that you talk about? What gun-rights organization do you work for? Are you a politician making laws?
Well, consider that many states have restrictions on the infringement (read “regulate”) or abridgement.
As an example:
New Mexico Constitution, Art II, Sec. 6. [Right to bear arms.]
No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.
Yet the courts have ‘rules’ prohibiting firearms in their buildings which they warn will prosecute violators... my question: under what law would they be prosecuted considering “NO LAW SHALL ABRIDGE THE RIGHT OF THE CITIZEN TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS FOR SECURITY AND DEFENSE”?
North Dakota Constitution, Art 1, Section 1.
All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation; pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness; and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family, property, and the state, and for lawful hunting, recreational, and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed.
and
Section 20. To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate.
And yet ND has concealed carry laws/licensing.
South Dakota Constitution, Article 6, § 24. Right to bear arms.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.
And yet firearms are denied (read ‘illegal’ to bear) in courthouses, city buildings, and state buildings.
So, it takes little effort at all (especially in this area) to show that the government is acting illegally, and least we forget most of the States have something like this in their Constitution:
“All political power is vested in and derived from the people: all government of right originates with the people, is founded upon their will and is instituted solely for their good.”
Which is a direct reference to the Declaration of Independence:
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
I'm VERY well aware of that and that's why I'm not for any permit/license to carry.....those are definitely infringements! I don't know where you got the idea that I support anything but Constitutional Carry like VT has.
I know this is very frustrating to those in Blue states but think about the sea-change nationalily that has been achieved. We have some form of carry in 49 of 50 states after 15 years of hard work and improvements every year in a number of states.
Are we going to give up our successful state by state advancement to let the Feds put their nose under the tent flap and start working its way inside? Are we going to give up the barracade that presents itself to the leftist grabbers by not having to fight this away state by state with more conservative state legislators and, instead, leave the avenue open to killing our rights on the national level bit by bit as they have done with EPA and all the other Fed programs.
No, I feel for you but, IMHO, the best way is at the state level and not to open this pandora’s box of Federal control of this issue.
Ah, you misunderstood; my point was on that the States often have such prohibitions that [should] make it even harder to justify their “prohibited places” and often any licensing.
IOW, I was trying to point out that it is NOT just a Federal-level Constitutional issue, but one that involves the States’s own Constitutions themselves.
It is very likely that people of a State could bring a suit against that State for violating the 14th Amendment which forbids State abridgment of due process, since the States’s own Constitutions prohibit them from enacting such licensing and yet the States have passed such statutes. IMO, Instead of attacking only on the basis of the 2nd Amendment we should also be on the lookout for other avenues of approach; our enemy is none other the most lawless branch in America: the Judiciary.
>>While the 2ndA is a prohibition against such regulation (see prior post), insofar as the infringement occurs it may be regulated for uniformity.
>
>As the tired old analogy that free speech doesn’t give one the right to shout ‘fire!’ in a crowded theater means that free speech can be regulated,
And what an absolutely wrongheaded idea; Congress is not allowed to “abridg[e] the freedom of speech.”
But this ties directly into the idea of ‘incorporation,’ the First Amendment is quite specific in its prohibition: it is CONGRESS which is bound thereby, to assert that the First Amendment binds State Legislatures is to assert that the text of the Amendment can be changed as it is applied to the States... and that is to assert that the Judiciary can indeed amend the Constitution, which by no means is allowed. Therefore, recognize that it is the judiciary which is in rebellion against the proper authorities and they may yet be called to account.
>for better or worse (worse IMHO) the Supreme Court ruled in Heller v DC that the 2nd Amendment is not an ‘absolute’ right and can also be regulated.
This is true, for the moment at least, which is why we need to attack on other fronts, specifically: State Constitutions.
The State Constitutions often phrase the Right to Keep and Bear Arms [very] differently than the 2nd Amendment which, in turn, means that [logically] the Judiciary cannot simply cite the Supreme Court’s declaration concerning the 2nd with some simple text-transformations. (That is to say, it becomes much harder for them.)
Examples:
New Mexico Constitution, Art II, Sec. 6. [Right to bear arms.]
No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.
SIGNIFICANCE:
The first portion of the list prohibits ANY law from abridging the Citizen’s right to keep and bear arms for security and defense; this means that the court CANNOT legitimately prosecute someone for, say, bringing a firearm into a courthouse. {Should a juror, a freeman who has not even been accused of a crime, be forced to disarm? Why? Note also that conceivably he has the power of life and death in his hands by virtue of being a juror and therefore arguments impugning his responsibility in life and death situations is to impinge his competence as a juror.}
SIGNIFICANCE:
The phrase “shall not be denied” is very strong, and that it relates to the bearing of arms it invalidates ALL state, county, and city prohibitions against carrying weapons.
and Section 20
To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate.
SIGNIFICANCE:
Section 20 quite bluntly denies EVERYTHING which is contained in Article 1 from the general power of government. This means that the government literally has NO LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY in the matters therein; Section 1 shows that keeping and bearing arms is, indeed, thusly excepted from government infringement/regulation/rule.
SIGNIFICANCE:
This specifically says that the people have the right to bear arms (as the Heler case was decided), but it ALSO connects to that the defense of themselves. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to attack firearm restrictions on the basis of not being able to adequately defend yourself. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has ruled (multiple times) that the police have no affirmitive obligation to an individual private Citizen’s safety, and therefore government-provided security (ie courthouses) CANNOT be said to be a guarantee of any particular citizen’s security.
I guess you need a lesson in reading comprehension......I am NOT for this legislation so you don’t have to “feel for me”. I’m NOT for opening any pandora’s box of legislation at the federal level! Oh and BTW, I don’t live in a blue state.
Please accept my apology if my expression of emphathy came across as insincere — it was generated by the reference to those states where very little genuine ability to qualify under their very restrictive carry legislation.
I trust the Federal government’s entry into any new area of legislation not at all. Recent gains on many state fronts has me encouraged that we are building a wall of carry legislation that is a solid knot that cannot be undone by the temporary swings of national moods.
Listen to your Mother - 2dn Amendment Mama ahs it perfectly!
“...true conservative politicians would work toward National Constitutional Carry...no license/permission required.”
The above is the ‘Gold Standard’ for 2nd Amendment supporters.
I just now saw your reply. Sorry for the delay. In Virginia, and NC, Citizen to Citizen purchases do not require an FFL. If the transfer was between citizens in different states, that would require an FFL transfer. Sorry if you live in one of those states that requires one!
I think that’s what all the hoopla about the “Gun show loophole” is. Citizen to Citizen transfers of personal property.
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