Posted on 10/07/2011 5:17:45 PM PDT by freespirited
There’s nothing so convincing as an “I don’t care, but ...”
Either GMTA or you beat me to the punch, Els.
If they keep telling themselves the quotes are lies, or out of context, they don’t have to deal with the reality. Sad but true, many Mormons would rather have their Mormonism than the truth. I oughta know...
Having said that, I am withholding judgement on whether Mormonism is a cult or not.
To me, though, a person's religious philosophy is one of several criteria that I would impose when considering whether to support a candidacy or not.
In Romney's case, the fact that he is a Mormon does give me some pause, whereas being a mainstream Christian would not. Not as much pause as a Muslim or collective authoritarian might give me, though.
Also, the Mormon issue wouldn't be a litmus test for me with respect to Romney. There are several other, more cogent issues which utterly disqualify Romney, to my thinking.
The Second Amendment and RomneyCare immediately come to mind, for instance.
I live near a temple in an area with a lot of Mormons. Being active and “believing” are two different things. Politicians understand the need to attend and be “active” in some church or other. After all, Obamalini attended church, too, for 20 years, although he claims he had a hearing problem at times.
This Baptist can’t imagine a genuinely believing Mormon being in favor of abortion, promoting the sodomite life-style, etc. Romney did those things in MA as a candidate and as governor.
The likelihood of Reid being a believing Mormon is even more remote. Unlike Romney, Reid is a corrupt liar. This is also not a trait I see among believing Mormons.
Have you ever been Mormon? They are the same. If you don’t believe, you aren’t that active, especially to the point of keeping your Temple Recommend.
Also. Reid’s bishop came out last year about what a good, faithful, believing LDS he was.
Also, most Mormons are liars, either to themselves and especially to ‘gentiles’. You wouldn’t know if you hadn’t been one. They claim to be honest, say it is part of their faith, but the reality is far different.
I found out the hard way.
Many LDS aren’t that pro-life. I can give you quotes from the CHoI that makes many allowances for abortion and state it is ok, if it is confirmed through prayer.
I’ll go with the first.
I’ve never been a Mormon. While I don’t doubt what you say is true about normal folk, we’re talking politicians here. Many politicians will choose a church and be active in it just because they believe it will further their chances of election (of the political kind ;-).
Both of them grew up LDS and if they wanted to make political points they would distance themselves from Mormonism (or leave) like Huntsman.
As I said, I’ve been active LDS, I can spot a TBM when I see one, and I can tell those who are just ‘along for the ride’. In Mormonism, it isn’t that hard. Catholicism is much harder that determine if they are true believers or not. Mormonism isn’t.
Romney's family has been Mormon going back to the 1830s. What? Do you think Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt chose the church just because he thought a descendant could benefit election-wise?
Please stop exporting your ignorance. (It's not very becoming for a Baptist).
Tell us, Achilles...
(1) Does the Mormon church just allow any fringe Mormon to be a "home teacher" -- as Harry Reid is in the D.C. area?
Or (2) Does BYU usually invite cursory Mormons to speak at all-student body, all-faculty rallies? (‘Cause guess what? That’s exactly what BYU did in October 2007 – ensuring Reid spoke to over 4,000 on campus. Here’s the FReeper story on that Reid gets warm reception at BYU)
From the above linked article, written by the Lds church owned Deseret News: At the end of his speech, Reid earned a standing ovation from a small percentage of the crowd and applause from the rest.
Tell us, Achiles, do BYU students & faculty usually applaud ALL cursory Mormons like that?
(3) The Salt Lake Tribune ran an October 2009 article – here. Harry Reid: A Mormon in the Middle
Here were two “interesting” comments by fellow Mormons about Reid, including one from Sen. Orrin Hatch: …Orrin Hatch, says it's not fair for fellow Mormons to disparage Reid as anything but a devout Mormon..."I can personally tell you that Harry is a good member of the LDS faith and he was expressing a personal opinion that his side feels very deeply about," Hatch says
Well, there ya go, Achilles. Are you being contentious against Sen. Hatch by calling him a liar – or mistaken – re: his eval of Reid? In fact, you use your own “infallible” line of reasoning, can you prove that Harry Reid is an untrue Mormon, or merely believe it so? If you can not prove Reid is untrue, then you can’t prove your larger point, now can you? You merely BELIEVE it to be.
(4) I mean, come on Achilles, the Salt Lake Trib article also mentioned how ”Today, Reid, with his security escort in tow, likely will be making his home teaching rounds after his ward's three-hour service. Anyone who questions his Mormon credentials should see that, says Jim Vlock, his home-teaching companion
There ya go, Achilles – yet another Mormon “testimonial” about Reid that claims he is a bonifide Mormon. (Of course, we all know how mistaken those Mormon testimonials are all the time about another Mormon leader – a Mr. Joseph Smith – so I guess Mr. Vlock can be wrong just like all the other Mormon testimonials, eh?)
Oh, and one more Mormon testimonial about Reid: LDS blog names Harry Reid as Mormon of the Year
So, who’s right Achilles? Sen. Hatch? Harry Reid? BYU’s speaker invite committee? The Local Lds leaders who authorize Reid to officially represent the church as a home-teacher? The Lds bloggers who named Reid as “Mormon of the Year.” Or You?
World: You know you’re reaching, as Rip is, when he has to rely upon Pat Robertson to designate whether Romney (& himself & all Mormons by extension) is/are Christian(s).
(Oh, sure...we'd like all POTUS candidates who think they are a "god-in-embryo" -- a full-grown god to be -- like Romney's faith teaches temple Mormons to be -- to tuck away that reality as of non-interest to the rest of us...so if Obama thinks he's another Messiah...no interest at all to the rest of us)
Joseph Smith altered the Biblical gospel by claiming in the Book of Mormon that the mainstream teaching for almost 1,000 years in the Americas was a doctrine of the gift of grace only coming AFTER we fulfilled God's legalistic checklist.
He said before grace kicked in, we needed to:
* Do "all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, supposedly almost 600 years before Christ)
* Do "works" that would lead to grace somehow being restored (Helaman 12:24, supposedly 6 B.C.)
* "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength," (Moroni 10:32, supposedly written 421 A.D.)
If you did all this, Smith said, you thereby would "earn" grace -- thereby turning the meaning of both "grace" and "gift" on its head!
Anybody failing of doing "all they can do" (morally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, relationally)...or not doing whatever "works" are required...or failing to love God "with all your might, mind, and strength"...or not denying yourselves of "ALL ungodliness"... sorry...Mormon grace doesn't kick in for you!
...You simply, per Smith's Book of Mormon, are not eligible for or “worthy of” God's grace! [I've quoted those BoM verses @ the end of this post so people can read them themselves!]
Since rarely do people heal themselves to go to see the physician to get well, Mormons have it all turned around!!!
Clearly, Joseph Smith did not read or agree with Jesus' words in Matthew 5:31-32:
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jesus came for us sinners. For those who need healing from the GREAT PHYSICIAN. He didn't come for the self-righteous -- those who were so perfected that they already were doing "all they" could do...and were already loving God with ALL their might, mind, and strength...and were already denying ALL aspects of ungodliness!
BoM anti-grace passages:
* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)
* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they MIGHT be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)
* Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”
If you would like to translate that to English, I might or might not respond.
Why do you think no one has asked Mitt Romney if the Mormon church has ever taught that all other religions are abominations?
Why do you think no one has asked Mitt Romney if the Mormon church has ever taught that all other religions are abominations?
A Senator or a Governor is a celebrity, and, yes, I think that Mormons, and especially the hierarchy, don’t scrutinize these sorts of celebrities carefully at all. The laymen don’t because the celebrity Mormon makes them feel good about themselves, while the hierarchy finds them useful.
You may, of course, be right. But I think the odds are that it doesn’t make any more sense to call Reid and Romney theologically committed Mormons than it would to call Ted Kennedy a faithful Catholic or Obamalini a committed Protestant.
By the way, I am not “exporting” anything. My comments are strictly for domestic consumption ;-)
I think that Romney and Reid make a show of being active because it benefits them politically.
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