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McCain on sending troops to Africa: Be careful
CNN ^ | 2011-10-16 | Ashley Killough

Posted on 10/16/2011 8:59:58 AM PDT by rabscuttle385

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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Someone else remembers that little “Asian war” began with JFK sending “advisors.” Deja vu.


21 posted on 10/16/2011 10:55:12 AM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: Bernard Marx
I wonder if Vietnam would have gotten as big as it did if JFK had lived?

I am not a JFK fan, but he seemed to be a man who learned from his mistakes.

As long as those mistakes did not involve his johnson.

22 posted on 10/16/2011 11:03:04 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: rabscuttle385
Hummmm! How long did Clinton say we would be in Bosnia/Kosovo? How long did Obama say we would be in Libya?

At least Bush was honest. He said regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, that the US would stand down when the national armies were able to stand up.

How long did Obama commit to Uganda??

23 posted on 10/16/2011 11:34:45 AM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda" and its allies.)
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To: unkus

por que?


24 posted on 10/16/2011 11:44:56 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I wonder as well. I mainly blame LBJ and McNamara for Vietnam. It’s a question as to whether JFK would have fired or overriden McNamara if he’d lived. I see LBJ as evil incarnate, the architect of nearly all of America’s current woes. We live today in the ruins of the dystopian “Great Society” that he and his HEW Secretary John Gardner, created.


25 posted on 10/16/2011 12:01:34 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: AfricanChristian

I asked about the RUSSIAN TANKS that ODINGO (as per the article) wanted to smuggle into Uganda.
Where are they NOW, WHO is using them against WHOM? My interest is in 100 US Military personel being placed in harms way.

Point of note: The Farina was not released until after Obama was President. Any movement of the arms was by HIS agreement. Thats why I question it.


26 posted on 10/16/2011 12:31:38 PM PDT by Old Flat Toad (Pima County, home of the single vehicle accident with 40 victims.)
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To: Candor7

Al Qaeda is still active in East Africa but nobody sets up a combatant command to deal with a short-term problem. Combatant commands are set up to deal with long-term strategic challenges.

Most of your foreign policy challenges stem from your addiction to oil from the Middle East. Africa has a lot of oil, and the US wants to reduce its dependence on Middle Eastern Oil. Al Qaeda is merely side show.

Have you heard about the Niger Delta militants? There are 14,000 square miles of Mangrove swamp in the Niger Delta and about two million bpd being pumped. There is also a very serious insurgency movement there. A major disruption to oil supplies from the Niger Delta could destabilise the World economy. Also remember that Nigeria is your fifth largest supplier of crude oil.

There is Libya with vast Oil and Gas reserves and Angola (have you heard about the insurgency in Cabinda?). Oil has been discovered off the coast of Ghana, in Uganda, in Chad and in Southern Sudan

The US also wants to be in Africa because the Chinese and Indians are there. The Chinese and Indians figured out that Africa would be a major growth market twenty years ago. America came to that realisation in 2008.

The US is geared up to re-fight the same battles they fought against Soviet proxies during the Cold War. This time, the enemies are the Chinese. The problem is that the Chinese don’t play the same game as the Soviets - they are more focused and extremely smart about it.

First the Chinese understand that this game is more about economics than security as economics drives everything. They understand that the game is not necessarily going to be won by the side that who spends the most money, but the side who creates the most economic opportunities.

For example, Western multinationals have been operating in the Congo for at least fifty years, but have done very little to improve local infrastructure. The Chinese stormed Congo with a massive deal ($9 billion) - you give us mining rights and we provide you with 2,400 miles of road, 2,000 miles of railway, 32 hospitals, 145 health centers and two universities.

The deal staggered the World. When questioned, the Chinese explained that when they opened up their economy, the Japanese requested for natural resources in exchange for infrastructure (China was net oil exporter as recently as 1993).

Think about it, if you were an African farmer, would you prefer to hack your way through the jungle to sell your products or save time and costs moving on a road?

Secondly, the Chinese realise that the Western aid model does not work and they are the first major World power to offer a serious alternative. The Chinese came to Africa with the idea of SEZs (Special Economic Zones). African nations ranging from Mauritius to Nigeria competed for Chinese money to set up special economic zones on their soil.

The logic behind the SEZ is simple. Carve out a zone, preferably near a port; provide facilities, infrastructure and low tariffs and invite manufacturers to set up shop. (A 16,000 acre Chinese / Singaporean supported SEZ is being set up in Lagos, Nigeria). The lessons learned can then be applied to the rest of the nation.

Thirdly, the Chinese understand that Africa is changing. The West is still stuck in a 1984 “Live Aid” time warp (as many of the comments in this forum show). It is becoming clear to African leaders that unemployed young men are the most serious national security challenge they face. The solution to that problem is more employment and more employment comes from more economic activity, not more aid - and the Chinese are best placed to provide that.

Having said that, Africa has serious security challenges and the US is very well placed to deal with them. However, capitalism, not security is (was?) the natural strength of the United States. The US has not framed its engagement with Africa in terms of economics (except in a few strategic sectors like Energy). The Chinese and Indians, on the other hand, are eager to participate in all sectors like Telecommunications, Agriculture, Manufacturing etc.

What should the US do? One school of thought is of the opinion that the US should forget ideology and focus on cooperating with China. However, African leaders prefer a competition between the West (US) and the Chinese in order to drive a hard bargain.

Another school of thought is that the US should cooperate with the Indians to contain Chinese influence in Africa. However, the Indians are a pretty independent bunch and don’t like taking orders from anyone and in any case, the Chinese and Indians already complement each other in Africa (Chinese provide infrastructure, Indians - services).

America’s disadvantage in Africa is that the US is no longer in the business of producing low cost goods and services (that capacity was shipped to China (goods) and India (services)). And if there was any market for low cost goods and services, it is Africa.

That is your dilemma.

Having considered all these factors, your egg heads probably decided that the best course of action was to concentrate on what you do best - securing the commons, Oil and Gas and high margin / high technology goods and services.

Will the US still be relevant in Africa forty years down the line, I doubt it?

Finally, as someone who lives in Africa, I haven’t seen much evidence to support your claim that Obama “intends to MIS-use US Africa Combat Command to forward his own neo-colonialist brand of radical politics in Africa, which will set tribe against tribe.”

There is very little distinguishing Obama’s Africa policy from Bush’s Africa policy.

Could you please explain what you mean, with concrete examples?


27 posted on 10/16/2011 12:38:11 PM PDT by AfricanChristian
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To: rabscuttle385

Africa, for the most part, has unpleasant people in conflict with equally unpleasant people. Our getting involved there will not benefit the US, as experience has shown in Somalia.


28 posted on 10/16/2011 12:46:02 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: elpadre

The Ugandan episode calls for caution, but it is a much less risky venture than either Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many of you don’t know how much Ugandan soldiers have sacrificed to deal with Al Shabab in Somalia.

http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/news/-/2558/553906/-/rj1vbfz/-/index.html

http://reliefweb.int/node/390862

The Ugandan military has called on the US military to aid it in dealing with its greatest security challenge.

Like McCain we should call for caution and wish your brave Special Forces soldiers safety and success - and leave it at that.

If you succeed, you would have made a very deep impact on an intensely pro-American population in East Africa. Let’s leave US politics at the shore for a while. You don’t want to send the message that the US only cares about its interests and not the interests of its allies.


29 posted on 10/16/2011 1:03:25 PM PDT by AfricanChristian
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To: the invisib1e hand

Gut feeling due to what the evil bastard is all about.


30 posted on 10/16/2011 1:27:46 PM PDT by unkus (Silence Is Consent)
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To: Old Flat Toad
If they are with anyone they are either with the South Sudanese, the Kenyans or the Ugandans.

To move equipment to South Sudan, you offload them at Mombassa, and send them by road via Uganda to Juba. On the other hand, Muslim North Sudan has its own port - Port Sudan on the Red Sea, so they have no need to smuggle tanks through Uganda (enemy territory).

Map of Sudan showing Port Sudan

They are not with Sudanese Muslims or the Lord's Resistance Army (which is being supplied by Sudanese Muslims). They are not going to be used on US military personnel.

American advisors are not going to fight either the Kenyan, Ugandan or Sudanese militaries.

Sheesh!! (You guys really need to brush up on your current affairs).

31 posted on 10/16/2011 1:41:54 PM PDT by AfricanChristian
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32 posted on 10/16/2011 5:48:29 PM PDT by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
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