9 responses to 9 false attacks on the 9-9-9 plan

North Star Writers Group / Herman Cain Author ^ | October 16th, 2011 | Herman Cain

[LZ_Bayonet]

"Your money that you draw out of your 401K will be taxed, wouldn't you like it at the lower 9% rate?"

If my top tax rate is 15% I am really paying something less because of the current 10% bracket (from the Bush cuts), so my rate is about 12%. Take away my simple deductions and exemptions and it may come up to 15%. So you're suggesting that I'd like to pay 9% income tax and 9% sales (all is spent), for a new total of 18%. [A lower cost of products won't help because everybody gets it.] Again, I PAID PAYROLL TAXES on all I put into the 401k (and all workers are currently paying it). It might be a great deal for those starting work after the plan is implemented but (I've read all the promise ladden replies) its not a good deal for anyone older. I like CAIN, and I know the plan would never get implemented as stated, but this is a problem.

I would suggest he set up an official, and more sophisticated, calculator and address the concerns of those who pay more. He should either say, "This plan is perfect!", and lose my vote, or state, "There may be some issues and it may need some tweaking or temporary tax limitations on previous earnings, but the basic goal of simplicity can still be maintained."

[CharlesWayneCT]

I’m not opposed to elimination of most deductions, including the mortgage deduction (I would oppose eliminating them in one step, but would phase them out over time).

I was simply saying that you have to take that into account when you are comparing total taxes paid before and after the plan takes effect. Everybody defending the plan talks about reducing taxes from 35% to 9%, while ignoring that the 9% tax will apply to a lot more income, because of the loss of deductions.

I do support deductions for marriage and children (in general, deductions for dependents within a legally defined family). Government exists for the common good of society, and has a compelling interest in “guarding the commons”. A stable family unit is the backbone of our society, and without it government as we formed it cannot survive. So setting the tax code so it does not discourage the family unit is a good thing.

The tax code should not favor two unmarried people living together over two married people living together (current code does that, even with the marriage deduction). But the tax code should take into account the cost of the family unit. A person who has to provide for 4 people should pay less in tax than a person who only provides for themselves.

Cain lets people take deductions for charitable contributions. What is more charitable than raising a child who cannot care for themselves? Under the Cain plan, you get no deduction for raising your own kid, but if you put your kid into foster care, and donate money to the foster family to raise your kid, you get a deduction. That is messed up.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Mock all you want. Our government has made laws that have existed for decades, and those laws created the need for people who understood the tax code. It isn’t those people’s fault for meeting that need. Sure, government could eliminate that need tomorrow, but government does have an obligation not to destroy the lives of it’s citizens who in good faith dedicated themselves to servicing the needs of other citizens, even if that need was an artificial need created by the government.

[LZ_Bayonet]

"Current retirees are enjoying a rate of return far higher than future retirees will likely see on their payroll contributions."

One, we have made some profit in the past but have never regained the 2007 values. Two, "likely" has a long history of unreliability. If I were trying to push the ultimate success of Cain's plan I wouldn't want to make that argument.

[Drago]

"Are you going to have room in your RV for your kids and grandchildren if they are jobless and homeless?"

"For the children" is exactly why I will actively work against the "Fair" Tax or 9% national sales tax...both are "revenue neutral" and will suppress what is left of the consumer economy.  Cut spending and move towards a flat tax in the 10-15% range if you want jobs "for the children".

[rikkir]

“Regardless, Cain is obviously nothing more than a Stalking Horse for Romney to split up the Conservative vote so that Romney can win with less than 30% of the vote.”

Whoa, whoa, Cain was running for president when Perry was still contemplating his navel. So who’s the “stalking horse”?
I don’t dislike Perry. I have a problem with his immigration position, but I would vote for him over Romney, and certainly over the idiot in chief, but dammit, I’m sick of politicians. It’s refreshing to see a real person running for office. I want term limits in congress for the same reason (see my tagline).
So far, since Palin isn’t running, Cain’s my guy, and there is no way he is running to help Mittens, he is running to be President.
Imagine how refreshing it would be to have regular, plain spoken guy in the White House.

[rolling_stone]

I am glad you are working towards a flat tax, let me know when it gets some recent traction. Most anything is better than the garbage we have now. Cain says on his site the 999 came as a way to merge the flat taxers with the fair taxers...so we really arent that far apart IMO.

[Drago]

"Your money that you draw out of your 401K will be taxed, wouldn't you like it at the lower 9% rate? It wasn't taxed when you put it in the 401k, because they are going to tax it when you withdraw it. 401k's are not tax-free, they are only tax deferred. All of the retirement accounts will have taxes collected upon withdrawal."

Under current federal income tax rules we would be paying about 5.5% on the funds withdrawn from our 401k's (we aren't "rich"), how is 9% PLUS a new federal 9% sales tax better?!? 

[upchuck]

Bump? Go here and scroll down to Bump.

Lots of other stuff on that thread worth looking at.

[rolling_stone]

...Sure, government could eliminate that need tomorrow, but government does have an obligation not to destroy the lives of it’s citizens who in good faith dedicated themselves to servicing the needs of other citizens, even if that need was an artificial need created by the government....

You forgot your sarcasm tag, the govcenment doesn’t owe anyone a living. What school of conservatism did you go to? Thats why we are in the mess wee are in too many bleeding heart liberals. Tell me what do you say to the thousands of unemployed auto workers or those in furniture factories or other industries that lost out to China? They provided a needed service and are now gone. Doctors and Obamacare are going to take a hit. My business takes a hit due to govt action nobody helped me. Cry me a river does the govt owe everyone a living too? Sounds like communism to me. What happened to adapt, overcome, improvise?

Will the tax lawyers and preparers will be protesting with OWS...gimmee gimmee gimme. You choose your occupation and take your chances.

Its called progress, it has winners and losers. If the list tern can’t get out of the way of the D-9 Caterpillar its gone.

[Atlas Sneezed]

Now, if I know that, Cain certainly knows that. So why did he say “pass”, and why doesn’t he want debate or amendment?

---

Perhaps it’s just an error in wordsmithing. Big deal.

[Loud Mime]

FAFR (filing away for reference)

[Kit cat]

Cain will need money to win, the establishment is going to fight this
Every step. The tax code is their power source. Everyone needs to
Send Cain $9.99 he can do it with many small donations

[NoRedTape]

bttt

[Polybius]

Claim 2: Creating a new tax is merely setting the stage for higher rates on all taxes, as untrustworthy politicians will surely raise them. Response: First of all, that is not a criticism of the 9-9-9 plan. It is a criticism of politicians. If you don’t want the rates raised, don’t elect politicians who will raise them......

How cute. Now we only need to control that no Democrats ever get elected.

Let's hear an argument from Herman Cain himself that he wrote last November.

That's the great thing about Cain. If you don't like what Cain says today, just wait a few days or a few months and he will then say the exact opposite.

=================

November 21, 2010, By Herman Cain

"The worst idea is a proposed national sales tax, which is a disguised VAT (value added tax) on top of everything we already pay in federal taxes.

Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

First, we have a spending problem in Washington, D.C. not a revenue problem. ......

Even worse is reason number two: In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing their national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. ....

For the liberal naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, ...."

Giving the administration and Congress another tool to tax us and confuse us is like giving an alcoholic a key to the liquor store with no supervision, only to discover that he locks the door after he is safely inside. A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.

[Polybius]

“Claim 2: Creating a new tax is merely setting the stage for higher rates on all taxes, as untrustworthy politicians will surely raise them. Response: First of all, that is not a criticism of the 9-9-9 plan. It is a criticism of politicians.

This is the most substantive of the criticisms levied against 9-9-9 and he pretends it’s not important by saying essentially that “well, any plan could be twisted by bad politicians.”

Herman Cain aims to please, LibertarianInExile.

Since you did not like that answer, Herman Cain argues THE EXACT OPPOSITE in my Post 195.

===========================

November 21, 2010, By Herman Cain

"The worst idea is a proposed national sales tax, which is a disguised VAT (value added tax) on top of everything we already pay in federal taxes.

Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

First, we have a spending problem in Washington, D.C. not a revenue problem. ......

Even worse is reason number two: In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing their national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. ....

For the liberal naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, ...."

Giving the administration and Congress another tool to tax us and confuse us is like giving an alcoholic a key to the liquor store with no supervision, only to discover that he locks the door after he is safely inside. A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country.

[Polybius]

"Your money that you draw out of your 401K will be taxed, wouldn't you like it at the lower 9% rate? It wasn't taxed when you put it in the 401k, because they are going to tax it when you withdraw it. 401k's are not tax-free, they are only tax deferred. All of the retirement accounts will have taxes collected upon withdrawal.".... republicangel

Under current federal income tax rules we would be paying about 5.5% on the funds withdrawn from our 401k's (we aren't "rich"), how is 9% PLUS a new federal 9% sales tax better?!? ...... Drago

And what about current savers, republicangel?

I just retired, on my own savings, after three decades of workaholic medical practice.

My savings have ALREADY been Income Taxed at the top rate of 35%. Once I spend my savings, under the 9-9-9 Plan, that money will be taxed AGAIN by a 9% Sale Tax.

How is that double-taxation of current savings "better"?

Cain has not though this thing through. In fact, Cain did not think of it himself at all.

=======================

From fan to The Man: How Cleveland's Rich Lowrie claimed a place in Herman Cain's inner circle

That's how Lowrie found himself this summer on a New Hampshire-bound flight with Cain, sketching the tax-reform plan that in recent weeks has become a household name and helped Cain surge to the head of the Republican field.

"I had one question for him," Lowrie said of the chat. "How bold do you want to be?"

Cain, "with his signature smile and booming voice," leaned in and replied: "Bold."

And so, "9-9-9" was born -- a proposal to replace the federal tax code with a flat 9 percent tax on personal income and businesses and a 9 percent national sales tax.

=======================

[Talisker]

Claim 2: Creating a new tax is merely setting the stage for higher rates on all taxes, as untrustworthy politicians will surely raise them. Response: First of all, that is not a criticism of the 9-9-9 plan. It is a criticism of politicians. If you don’t want the rates raised, don’t elect politicians who will raise them. Even if we repealed the 16th Amendment and eliminated the income tax, as some demand in return for establishing a consumption tax, politicians could raise that rate too.

Right, Herman, all we need to do is elect politicians who won't raise taxes - and as everyone knows, they're a dime a dozen. So hey, I've got an idea: why don't you make it a $0.0000000000000000000001 tax ON EVERY HUMAN BREATH? Huh, Herman? After all, what do we have to fear, unless we irresponsibly elect politicians that will raise that rate? I mean, it's not like we're fighting a war against Leftists and RINOs, right?

Oh, and very slick, imagining the repeal the 16th Amendment, since THAT is exactly what you're NOT doing that makes 999 so lethal. So what's the difference? Well let's see - how about the fundamental difference between a Constitutional Excise Tax, versus the imposed corporate income tax system we have now? As president, would you like to at least attempt to show us that you know the difference between the two?

But why should I argue with you, Herman? Why don't I just let YOU rebut YOURSELF. Less than a year ago, on November 21, 2010, YOU WROTE:

"The worst idea is a proposed national sales tax, which is a disguised VAT (value added tax) on top of everything we already pay in federal taxes.

"Here are three of the biggest reasons the national retail sales tax is the worst idea on the table.

"First, we have a spending problem in Washington, D.C. not a revenue problem. ......

"Even worse is reason number two: In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing their national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. ....

"For the liberal naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, benefits have gone down and they are still on a path of insolvency.

"Giving the administration and Congress another tool to tax us and confuse us is like giving an alcoholic a key to the liquor store with no supervision, only to discover that he locks the door after he is safely inside.

"A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane! It gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country."

Thanks, Herman - I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hetty_Fauxvert]

rconser - Sincer 2011-10-08:

Troll much?

[rbmillerjr]

“Cain SAID it was OK to call it a VAT.”

It’s not a VAT, big difference between a VAT and a sales tax. A VAT is taxed at every level of the distribution chain. Cain’s sales tax is taxed at only the end point.

To attempt to say the 999 is a VAT tax is a deception. To attempt to take a conversation out of context and imply Cain is saying his 999 Plan is a VAT is deceitful.