Posted on 11/08/2011 10:53:54 PM PST by Kevmo
Report On A Conversation With George Miley
Posted on November 8, 2011 by ecatsite
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This was posted on Vortex by Jed Rothwell and with his permission is posted below .
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I spoke with George Miley of the University of Illinois about his most recent tests with palladium zirconium alloys with gas loading. Here are some notes from the conversation and some related information about some of (Dr. Tadahiko) Mizuno’s experiments .
A set of PowerPoint slides here shows his results up until recently. Download the slides here .
See the slides starting at # 46 .
This does not show the most recent results, which are more dramatic .
Slide 48 shows the overall pattern of the reaction .
Note that for ordinary chemical reactions, loading is exothermic and deloading is endothermic. That is not what you see here. In some cases the initial chemical exothermic reaction is followed by a second reaction raising the temperature still higher. This is the anomalous cold fusion reaction. These slides do not show it lasting for long. This is similar to (Dr. Akira) Kitamura’s results .
The slides show early runs. Recently they made a batch of material that works dramatically better. However, they only made one batch so far and they have run samples from it four times. They will need to make more batches to confirm that they can reproduce this improved performance. Miley is “optimistic but cautious” that the next batch will work as well as this one did .
In the four runs they have achieved fairly stable output ranging from ~75 to ~200 W. The runs last around six hours. As shown in slide 48, the sample first self-heats from the chemical reaction. Because the sample is well insulated this heat is enough to trigger the anomalous reaction — when the anomalous reaction occurs. You do not usually need external heating although the cell is equipped with a heater (slide 47) .
The samples are ZrO2 with 35% Pd loaded with deuterium at 60 psi. They range from 15 to 30 g. The starting material is of high purity and comes from Ames National Laboratory. Additional processing is done at the University of Illinois. Miley thinks that recent success is due to their increased attention to material purity and improved manufacturing methods, and a better vacuum pump. Quote slide 49:
“Most effort has been to develop improved nanoparticles by comparing and down selecting a series of triple alloys.”
They are also making ZrO2Ni, to be loaded with hydrogen. I do not think they have done this yet. We did not talk about that much .
Although deloading is chemically endothermic, in some cases they have seen the heat increased during the loading. This is presumably anomalous heat. Rossi showed a similar effect during the October 6 demonstration. Miles says this is probably caused by flux, that is, deuterons moving through the lattice. It does not matter which direction they are moving. McKubre listed flux as one of the key factors in his “ad hoc” equation .
Calorimetry .
A schematic of the calorimeter is shown in slide number 47. This is a gas calorimeter, similar to the one Mizuno used in his studies with proton conductors. I have a lot of data from that and I am pretty familiar with the characteristics so I will discuss it below .
The temperature is measured at the sample I believe, or anyway, in the sample chamber. When there is heat (chemical or anomalous) you see a temperature difference between the sample chamber and the outer chamber. In Miley’s case, the temperature difference ranges from 100°C to 200°C. Miley described this calorimeter as very complicated and nonlinear. It is difficult to model. The problem is that the ratio of output power to the temperature at the core of the sample chamber will vary depending upon the type of gas you fill the sample chamber with, and the gas pressure .
Based on Mizuno’s data, I agree this is very complicated but on the other hand it is also probably reliable, stable and repeatable. Mizuno tested hydrogen, deuterium, helium, air, and a vacuum. He tested the gases over a range of pressures. He found that when you use the same kind of gas at the same pressure, a given power level always produces the same temperature difference between the inside and the outside. So, when anomalous power produces a certain temperature you can find that point on the output curve and you can say with confidence that it is producing that much power .
Because of this complexity, Miley et al. do not know with accuracy how much power the sample is producing. On the other hand they can be sure it is producing heat because the sample chamber is much hotter than the outer chamber. We know the energy is anomalous, because it produces a much larger temperature difference than the chemical effect, and it lasts much longer: 21600 s compared to 150 s. The anomalous power continues when the heating coil is turned off, so there is no possibility that they are mistaking conventional electric heating with anomalous heating .
In other words, they can be sure there is anomalous heat but they cannot say with assurance what the magnitude of it is. I think they would have to do more calibration with a joule heater to establish exactly what the power level is. The heating coil around the outside of the sample chamber would not be suitable for this. You need to put heater right where the sample is located, in the center of the sample chamber. This is what Mizuno did .
Ambient air is outside the outer chamber. Changes in this air temperature will not have much effect on the calorimetry because the inner temperature differences are so much higher than ambient fluctuations. Mizuno’s data shows no measurable effect from ambient changes even though he was in a poorly heated laboratory in Hokkaido, with large gaps in the walls and windows .
They are using one calorimeter. They are doing the experiments every few weeks. They would like to expand the effort to have someone work full-time on it. Ahey would like to have 4 calorimeters instead of 1, so they can test more samples in parallel. I suggested they use at least one Seebeck calorimeter. This would sweep aside all of the complexities of gas calorimetry, since it measures the heat outside the walls of the gas cell. The cell should fit into a Seebeck calorimeter because it is about 2 inches long .
Miley outlined a development path for this in slide number 52 .
I hope to find someone who can provide funding for this research. It has some major advantages over Rossi’s research:
The power density and temperatures are roughly comparable with Rossi .
Tests with nickel might produce the same light water effect that Rossi has observed .
This is a state university so the results would be made public .
Miley and her students are conventional academic scientists, not businessmen. They have no imperative to keep their results secret. On the contrary they would publish as quickly as they can to establish priority .
Miley’s researchers are young. See slide 46. This kind of research should be done by young people. Frankly, I would rather have one young person than 5 elderly scientists .
The material supplied by Ames Laboratory can be documented in great detail, and probably reproduced. The additional processing performed by Miley et al. can also be documented in detail .
Unlike Rossi, Miley et al. are willing to reveal all details of their work and to share materials with other qualified researchers, so this material can be independently tested by other laboratories .
This is not to criticize Rossi for being secretive. The imperatives of research at a public university are different from those in a private corporation .
Rossi does have one large advantage over Miley et al. He is working on a gigantic scale. This impresses many people. It does not impress me…I find a test at 100 W as convincing as a test at 1 MW. As long as the temperatures and power density are comparable, and the reaction is stable, I don’t see any advantage to scaling up above 100 W. It just makes the calorimetry more complicated, and it makes the experiment dangerous. However, members of the public and mass media reporters will probably be more impressed by the larger scale of Rossi’s tests. I suppose that from a public relations point of view it would be a good idea to scale up. If Miley et al. had funding perhaps they could make a cell that generates kilowatt level heat. I regard this as more of a public relations stunt than a scientifically useful thing to do, but sometimes a stunt is called for .
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Unfortunately, if Rossi hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps, created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos, bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos.
Did he convince a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam?
Has he convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow?
Who arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real, got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field, got Bushnell to make a fool of himself, sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam.
Was he certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan – the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table? He has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes and knows that they will just take his word for it and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!)
In order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out – then all bets are off.
I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses .
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"The power density and temperatures are roughly comparable with Rossi."
"They are also making ZrO2Ni, to be loaded with hydrogen. I do not think they have done this yet. We did not talk about that much .
Either of these "fuels" should allow higher temperatures than Rossi's rig can put out. Zirconium has a higher melting point (1854C) than Nickel (1453C). And the zirconium oxide ceramic drastically higher (2715C).
Of course, the absolute melting point probably is not the critical factor....that would be when the metal "defects" that allow/promote the reaction lose that capability. But I would guess that contiguous metal nanoparticles in the zirconium oxide matrix would keep that capability into higher temperatures.
It will be interesting to see how the seagulls try to paint Miley as a fraud.
It will be interesting to see how the seagulls try to paint Miley as a fraud.It will be interesting to see how the Rossi fanboys will try to use any story about credible LENR research as though it "proved" that Rossi isn't a con artist.
I suggest you take a gander at Sergio Focardi's recent talk at TEDItaly. Pay particular attention to the slides of the various early prototypes. NO "con artist" would go to that degree of trouble, building that many different devices, over that long a period of time.
And yes, Miley's work DOES, to some extent, legitimize Rossi's work. If his work with Ni/H2 shows results comparable to his existing work with Zr/Pd/D2, then it WILL validate the science. Of course, Piantelli's work already does, even to yielding a similar degree of output power with his latest results, but apparently that isn't enough for the psychotic naysayers.
NO "con artist" would go to that degree of trouble, building that many different devices, over that long a period of time.Sure they would: Keely Motor Company
Keely kept his scam going for 14 years, sold stock to the public, build an entire factory with false ceilings and floors, performed regular "demonstrations" to keep his investors and fans hooked and convinced several respectable scientists that he had made revolutionary scientific discoveries.
This is independent verification that there is something to LENR, that actual nuclear-type reactions are happening in ways that conventional theory does not account for.
Kevmo, my interest level is increasing.
Her group is getting elements and isotopes after the reaction that were not present before the reaction.So it seems. In particular, slide 21 shows "39 Elements Show Significant Isotope Shifts from Natural Abundance". Note that this is nothing like the results of Rossi's sample. Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring elements in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally.
I would hardly consider this as any sort of validation of Rossi. Quite the opposite.
I hope something comes of this. I would love to see a clean, cheap source of power made available. But I don't expect to see it come from Rossi.
Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring elements in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally.I meant to say, "Rossi's sample showed only naturally-occuring isotopes in the exact same ratio as occurs naturally."
I think the term 'flat-earthers" fits them better. They know the earth is flat (cold fusion is not possible) so they lampoon with glee anyone who is willing to consider that the earth may be a sphere (cold fusion may be possible.)
This is independent verification that there is something to LENR, that actual nuclear-type reactions are happening in ways that conventional theory does not account for.
***There has been independent verification of that for a long time, and plenty of evidence of transmutation.
Mizuno, T., “Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion” describes the experimental work of Prof. Mizuno. Read selected pages in our library
I'll bet that some of those radioactive isotopes are very expensive to buy, and having them show up in the "ash" of the fusion reaction is compelling proof that it's genuine.
It's a shame that the ash from Rossi's E-Cat doesn't show any signs of radioactive isotopes. I guess he couldn't afford to buy any to "salt" his sample.
Like I keep saying, we’ll have a better idea of Rossi’s E-cat when large, respected customers come forward attesting to running E-cats for weeks with verified large net energy production. Or not.
Kevmo, your scenario spells out the level of paranoia suffered by the basement LENR debunk team. Not only has Dr. Miley demonstrated there is firm underlying research in the LENR field, he/she has a commercialization plan. Relying on the microspheres Patterson-type patent gives them IP protection to go forward with a gas-loaded cell.
And we have more confirmation from NASA’s Langley Research Center, going back to August 2009:
“Joseph Zawodny, a senior research scientist with NASA’s Langley Research Center, endorsed LENRs, writing that they “could replace coal, oil, [and] natural gas-fired power plant heat sources with minimal impact to the extant generation and distribution infrastructure. . . . LENRs could be drop-in replacements for conventional nuclear reactor heat sources in nuclear power plants. . . . LENR-powered desalination plants could produce fresh water while simultaneously producing power.”
Surely Langley is on Rossi’s payrole as well.
Interesting comments. It would seem Rossi is simply playing his part well as the eccentric inventor who wants the protection of the market in lieu of international patents. His team is doing a fantastic job of building interest and leaking history of LENR research.
This is to say that Rossi is far more savvy than credited by Jed. What annoys some is his vision for a future that obviates wasteful old technology i.e. a decrepit grid with all its clugy mechanical requirements. This vision needs an opportunity to compete. In the long run, it will come to pass. Just as this technology frees mankind from fossil fuels - its implementation arrives from free thought. The value is not just in the technology, but the creative process that has brought it to bear.
BTW, it is not lost that Shockley is considered a bell curve racist - violating this forum’s prohibition against same.
“Joseph Zawodny, a senior research scientist with NASA’s Langley Research Center, endorsed LENRs, writing that they “could replace coal, oil, [and] natural gas-fired power plant heat sources with minimal impact to the extant generation and distribution infrastructure. . . .HERE is a link to the article (or an article) which uses the quote you mentioned.
Notice that he says "could", not "will". This is him speculating on what could happen if someone builds a working LENR reactor. You are reading way too much into this if you think it means that this will happen.
He thinks he can build one, as soon as someone gives him $25 million to build a prototype.
I know that I can build one for $25 million. It may take me the rest of my life, but I promise that I will have a working unit by the time I die, or the investors can have whatever money is left.
I’ll do it for only $20MM! ‘Course, it’ll probably take every bit as long as it would you... :-)
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