Posted on 04/15/2012 5:37:34 PM PDT by PRePublic
- 10:03:00 PM
Days of Remembrance event is Sunday
Holocaust survivors Herman Schloss, Irene Danon and Abe Greenberg gathered in Prescott on Monday.
PRESCOTT - Irene Danon, 82, said she survived the Holocaust in the former Yugoslavia by hiding from the Nazis during World War II.
And while the Nazis killed several of her family members in concentration camps, Danon said she has learned to forgive the Germans and other nationalities responsible for the genocide of 6 million Jews.
"I hope to show the world the Holocaust really happened, and in order to move on and heal myself, I have learned to forgive," Danon said. "Forgiveness is the key for survival and healing."
(Excerpt) Read more at dcourier.com ...
Jewish blood libels against Christians? What the hell are you talking about? I have every right to feel exactly as I do and I don’t need to be judged by hi-toned preachers who tell me I should feel forgiveness for the Nazis for my own good.
Again and again you insult me by telling me I should have Christian feelings on this subject. I reject utterly your false ideology. Jews don’t believe in forgiving what is not theirs to forgive. We hate evil and falsehood in all forms. It doesn’t consume us or darken our hearts. If I didn’t feel rage about the Nazis and this stupidity of forgiving them, there would indeed be something seriously wrong with me. This kind of rage bespeaks a healthy human soul that knows the difference between good and evil.
Darkness is not in my heart, but deception is in yours. You feel comfortable with the notion of forgiveness even of the worst imaginable evil because it makes you feel better about yourself. This is nothing but self-serving emotional masturbation.
Please, don’t respond. You have already said enough and revealed to me your true Christian face. Ugggh.
As to blood libel against Christians, I think any reasonable person reading your comments would conclude you are condemning all Christianity and Christians for the abuses of Jews over the centuries. As well as all the countries of Europe for not doing enough to save the Jews. That is plain out wrong and evil. There is no such thing as collective guilt.
You are a FReeper so I assume you are conservative and should agree with that...so just as black Americans need to get past slavery and not blame the white people of today, Jews like you need to get past the Holocaust and not blame the Germans or the Christians of today. Time to let it go.
I’m not your friend, so stop using that obnoxious device.
As I’ve said in other posts, I thing the lady is wrong, but she has standing to do whatever the hell she pleases. You don’t have standing to tell me how to feel about the bastards who have murdered my people over the centuries, culminating in the Nazi genocide. You especially don’t have standing to tell me to adopt a Christian attitude to these events, perpetrated in large part by “good” Christians. Where the hell was their spirit of forgiveness?
You really don’t understand basic concepts. A blood libel is when a false accusation is made to justify persecution, including mob violence and murder. My accusation against the Christian countries of Europe over the centuries is true. Even the Church has acknowledged this and apologized. When Jews call Christians on these unpleasant facts, it is not a blood libel against Christians because the accusations are true and we don’t use them to justify violence and murder of Christians.
You are also using the concept of collective guilt incorrectly. Again, the bad kind of collective guilt is when the Nazis used the “crimes” of one or two people (such as trying to hide food) to burn an entire village in the synagogue. There absolutely is collective guilt of the German (and other) people because the vast masses either eagerly participated in real crimes against humanity or sat quietly by and let it happen.
I don’t make any judgments about how G-d, in his own good time, will sort out the price that might yet be exacted from the Germans or Christians of today. That’s entirely up to Him. In the end, I knew you’d finally get to it: Get over the holocaust Juden! Screw you.
Matthew 7:4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
I read Corrie Ten Bloom’s book. It was wonderful.
Sorry to say but it is human nature, unless it's happening to you, close a blind eye. Today you can see it with abortion. I stood outside of a place where babies are butchered for years and years, but very, very few did. Because these babies are being killed behind "clinic" doors, by people with white coats, who are socially sanctioned to do so, and "it doesn't really affect me", who cries for them? They are being brutally, and shamelessly murdered almost every day in many cites in America, while people drive by and don't even notice. People's ability to sin and tolerate sin shows how very evil, even some of the seemingly best of people actually are. The really amazing thing is that God loves us so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son for us.
Also, it is really not known how many average Germans were aware of what was really going on. Even the Jews, from my understanding, didn't know what was going on, but often thought that they were being relocated. Many even thought, as they entered the evil gas chambers, that they were merely going to receive a shower. I could be wrong about some of this, as I was not a witness, nor am an expert in the history of Germany at that time.
Jesus taught love, even loving your enemy. Being a Christian means being Christ like. Jesus forgave those who killed Him, from the cross, as He hung and died. If someone isn't following Christ's teachings, but calls themselves a Christian, they are not acting as one. Jesus said that only a few would actually find their way onto the straight and narrow way, but that there would be many on Judgement Day who, though they thought that they knew Him, He will say to them, "I never knew you".
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Mathew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mathew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luke 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luke 6:34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
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Mathew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mathew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mathew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Bellflower, I think you mean well. But I have tried to say this a number of times: it is nothing short of rude and insensitive to keep preaching Christian doctrine and scripture to someone who is obviously a committed Jew. I refuse to be baited into a debate over the comparative legitimacy of religions, but you and others who keep sending me these Christian messages about how I should deal with this are basically saying: “Judaism just doesn’t know how to deal with this properly” or “the Jewish response to the Nazis is wrong”.
I’ve been on FR for almost 8 years and I’ve always treated my Christian friends here with the utmost respect, which has mostly been reciprocated beautifully. Part of this mutual respect is expressed by giving deference to each other’s beliefs and honoring each other’s commitments to lead godly, kind, charitable, peaceful and moral lives, regardless of theological framework.
I’m calling on you to just cut it out.
You may mean well and I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but it is a simple matter of etiquette, common sense and decency not to go around telling people: “you know, that religion which you and your father and your grandfather and all your ancestors have been observing and dying for for the last 3,500 years? Well its completely wrong and you should just dump the whole thing for this other thing that you and your father and your grandfather and all your ancestors have regarded as utter falsehood and blasphemy for the last 2,000 years and that has been used as an excuse to murder you for the last 2,000 years.” It’s idiotic and insulting to approach a confirmed Jew with this nonsense just as it would be insulting and idiotic for me to do the reverse to you.
Does anyone really need to say they think they have the answer and everyone ought to believe what I believe for their spiritual welfare? It is the very definition of belief in G-d!!!
Beyond that, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. Sincere converts and seekers are most welcome, but we don’t go around hitting everyone over the head with “love”.
Also with respect, please understand that there are Christians who believe that forgiveness must be granted to those who ask for forgiveness and demonstrate the sincerity of their repentance by such actions as appropriate restitution, but that forgiveness to those who make no claim to be repentant is neither required nor appropriate.
I have too often seen Jewish people take great offense, and quite legitimately so, when some Christians tell them they must forgive Nazis.
Psalm 139:19-24 is in our Bibles, too.
“Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.”
I say this not to criticize my Christian brothers and sisters who believe otherwise — I'm a Calvinist and unlike many non-Reformed evangelicals do not believe G-d loves all people individually — but I want to avoid a son of the Mosaic Covenant perhaps misunderstanding Christianity and thinking that we believe in cheap grace.
Hatred of those who hate G-d — not those who are merely our own enemies, but the avowed enemies of G-d — is entirely appropriate. Of course Christians should pray that haters of G-d will repent and be converted, but if that does not happen, we should pray that the enemies of G-d be taken out of the way by being destroyed or having their plans foiled.
This is a point which far too often has caused Jewish people to be seriously offended, especially Jewish people of a more conservative theological viewpoint, against well-meaning Christians. Christians have every right to follow what they believe Scripture teaches, but it is important that Jewish people know that Christians are not unified on believing that people have a duty to forgive unrepentant evildoers.
Back to the underlying theological issues — JewishRighter, I'm sure you understand there are massive differences between Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism in both practice and belief. Similar differences exist within Christianity, and even within its evangelical forms. Just as modern Orthodox and Hasidic Jews agree on far more things than they disagree when compared to less strictly observant Jews, evangelicals may agree on many things without agreeing on whether there is an obligation to forgive unrepentant evildoers. There are good reasons why men such as Oliver Cromwell, many other Puritans, and the Dutch Calvinists in the 1600s and 1700s worked hard to help Jews at the same time much of European Christianity was anti-Semitic. An appreciation within Calvinist or Reformed Christianity for the Hebrew Bible (the Christian “Old Testament”) accounts for much of that historic goodwill between many Calvinists and the Jewish communities of the Netherlands, for example.
Let us unite on what we can agree, namely, praying for the peace of Jerusalem and the scattering of the wicked.
Let G-d arise, and by His might
Let all His foes be put to to flight;
But O ye righteous, gladly sing,
Exult before your G-d and King.
darrell: I really appreciate your thoughtful post and your point is well taken. Truthfully, I was not ignorant of what you said, but the person who was engaging me on this point was spectacularly obnoxious and citing Christian scripture to a FReeper named “JewishRighter”. My comments were only made in that context and not meant as a blanket condemnation of all Christians at all times. Hardly. It seems that, besides the examples you cited, the development of a Judeo-Christian moral basis for societies in places Britain and America, created a whole new level of tolerance and mutual respect so that I can safely say today that the bad old days are well behind us. Is there still a problem of anti-semitism and other evils that we should hate? Absolutely. But then, there are a lot of folks like you which makes me feel very lucky to be alive (and American) in this day and age.
So we agree:
“Let us unite on what we can agree, namely, praying for the peace of Jerusalem and the scattering of the wicked.”
We are, I think, in full agreement about the Judeo-Christian foundations of America — just as Maryland Catholics earned their full participation in the American republic by their backing of the American Revolution, very similar stories could be told of the role of Jewish patriots who, based on their experiences with Alexander Hamilton and others, backed the American Revolution because they believed a free and independent United States would provide greater freedom for Jewish religious faith and practice than what prevailed in Britain in the 1700s.
As you may have gathered, I'm not unfamiliar with modern Judaism, though I am merely a student of Judaism, and a poor one at that, and cannot claim any expertise compared to what you likely possess. As an Orthodox Jew from New Jersey who I'm guessing lives in a community where Orthodox practices are not only known but reinforced by community standards, it is likely that members of your family have learned more by the time of their bar mitzvahs than I have learned from all my years of watching and becoming friends with Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jews. There is also the whole matter of “teaching Torah to Gentiles” and I understand why my more observant Jewish friends have in the past been hesitant to enter into certain sorts of discussions.
I have said for many years that it is crucial for evangelical Christians to understand that when we speak to Jewish people, we must understand that we, by our own sins and wickedness, have given good reason for Jews to hate what we believe. As a Calvinist, I am accustomed to thinking covenantally — the first two-thirds of my Bible teaches me that G-d ordinarily works through families and communities, and holds them accountable not only as individuals but also as groups. That simply is not the way most modern evangelicals think due to individualistic views that have greatly affected the church. It's hard for many evangelicals to understand why many Jewish people blame Christians as a group for things done long ago by other people since that way of thinking is foreign not only to much of modern secular thought but also to much of modern evangelicalism.
JewishWriter, you will ordinarily see me speak with great care and great caution when discussing doctrine with Jewish people. I understand that when a Jewish person sees me, he or she often sees me not as an individual but as a representation of Christendom which has a long and sad history of anti-Semitic persecution. I labor under the burden of centuries of gross sins and wickedness promoted by people who professed the name of Christ, even if (as I would argue) many of them did not possess Christ at all, being merely Christians in name alone who were grossly disobedient in many ways. Persecution of G-d’s chosen people by people who claim to be Christian is simply inexcusable, but because it has happened so often in the past, Christians have a heavy burden to bear when we speak with Jewish people.
I am a Bible-believing evangelical Christian. You know enough about Christianity to know that determines what I believe about my faith and practice, and we're going to have serious disagreements about some things. My Bible does not command me to be rude and obnoxious, but it does teach me to explain and clarify what I believe, and I hope in this case I have managed to do so without needless offense to you.
Blessings to you as you seek to be a son of the Commandments. We're going to disagree on some important things about what that means in the spiritual realm, but in the temporal realm, an Orthodox Jew, evangelical Protestant, and conservative Roman Catholic should be able to agree on many things,and that's a big part of what makes Free Republic work.
Well spoken. I have no doubt about your good will and I don’t view all Christians with a jaundiced eye because of events of the past.
I have no concern over the fact that we will have disagreements about theology. After all, if we didn’t, there would be no different religious identities. What I see in most cases is that, in the course of any particular religious discussion, we reach a static point. By static point, I mean a point where the ideas become opposed to the point that there is no further point in arguing except to irritate the other person. This usually comes about when a bedrock principal or doctrine of faith is in question. A very simple example is that Christians accept Jesus as the messiah, Jews do not. No benefit can be achieved by insisting that one accept the other’s view on this point. Sure, you could have a rational discussion about the scriptural basis for the opposing views, but, in the end, a conclusory argument (”yes he is, no he isn’t”) is useless and likely offensive.
Thank you for engaging in this enjoyable and interesting conversation. You are a perfect example of why I love FR and continue to believe in the greatness of America. “May there be peace within your walls, tranquility in your palaces.”
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