Trayvon Martin’s death was ‘ultimately avoidable’: Florida police report

NY DAILY NEWS ^ | 5/18/12 | ALIYAH SHAHID

[SoFloFreeper]

Trayvon Martin's death was “avoidable.”

That’s the conclusion of a new police report on the unarmed teen’s killing at the hands of George Zimmerman in Sanford, Fla.

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the document by Sanford, Fla. Police said.

[Tublecane]

“If Zimmerman was losing a fight he started, as you and Zimmerman agree he eventually was”

Was losing, I mean, not that he started it. Sorry if that was worded incorrectly.

[Tublecane]

“Then tell us exactly how you know for a fact that this is not what happened”

You keep moving the goal lines. First it’s show me evidence Martin started the fight, then it’s prove it to me. First it’s I know Zimmerman is a jerk and started the fight by getting out of his truck, following a fleeing Martin, then brandishing his weapon. Then you’re the disinterested observer who doesn’t know anything for sure, and is only looking for other people to justify their versions of events beyond a reasonable doubt.

At long last, there is evidence Martin started it, though not direct evidence and not evidence meeting the reasonable doubt standard. There is no evidence Zimmerman started it, beyond him “following” and “confronting” Martin (whatever that means) and not staying in his truck to wait for the police. And that is no evidence at all.

[SaraJohnson]

I agree that this whole prosecution is unjust, from the evidence we have seen.

When you “stand your ground” and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight. You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in. That is all the prosecutors have - to try and make it look like (racist, angry, mean, awful) Zimmerman was picking a fight by “stalking” little skittles boy until Zimmerman got the fight he was egging (it was skittles boy who was standing his ground againt the big bad stalker man) on so he could shoot Martin.

That does not match the testimony and evidence, but they will milk emotions and tar and feather the racist whitey, er, I mean the American mutt (hispanic, white, black). Unless the prosecutor has evidence we don’t know about, this is a political show trial steeped in race hate and hatred of the second amendment’s right to self defense.

[Tublecane]

“Please show where, in law, a suggestion is evidence.”

Suggested is just the word I chose to describe it. Like all evidence, it doesn’t absolutely establish anything, but rather only leads reasonable people to believe something. I don’t have to show you where interpreting wounds to determine who attacked and who defended themselves has been used as evidence because it’s to common to require proof. That’d be like asking me to show where, in law, what is suggested by eye witness testimony is evidence.

“There are many freepers swearing that Martin attacked Zimmerman and getting truly upset when asked for proof. Regardless of how upset they get, none can provide proof beyond ‘suggestions’”

That’s not the point, really. You seem to get upset, too. The point is that when asked for evidence, no matter how pissy they are or how often they accuse you of being a crypto-leftist, they can produce it. And that’s all evidence often is, by the way, a “suggestion.” A suggestion that, like I said, would lead reasonable people to a certain conclusion. But a suggestion nonetheless.

[PhatHead]

Has any intrepid reporter looked into exactly what this community’s Neighborhood Watch policy is? What the written guidelines of action are, if any?

The Sanford Neighborhood Watch guidelines have been pretty widely published, but to be honest, they're not really relevant. Neighborhood Watch is not a job. It's established that he was carrying a gun legally, and that "following" is also legal. And aside from all that, Zimmerman was not on a "neighborhood watch" patrol, he was on a personal errand (to Target, I believe.)

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

:: I have no prejudice toward Zimmerman at all. ::

Here, let me help you out...

“Zimmerman was a jerk...”
“One was a macho fool...”

To echo your thread-mantra: If you have actual evidence that Zimmerman is a “jerk” and a “macho fool” then post it. If you don’t then you have pre-judged Zimmerman and by extension are “prejudiced”.

Get it?

[Tublecane]

“The court will consider his statement to be self-serving.”

The jury may find it persuasive, especially if it never changed and jives with known facts. That’s why they have defendants testify, when they do: because their stories can be persuasive.

“The SC has declared that it is assumed that anybody will lie to mitigate responsibility or punishment”

Well, duh. No one needs men in black to tell them that. The point is that Zimmerman’s account of the events is important to establish his credibility, and that’s paramount in a case like this where the defense won’t merely deflect the prosecution but will assert a positive case in the form of Zimmerman being immune due to his having killed in self-defense.

[mass55th]

"You can have all the prejudiced opinions you want but you can't have your own facts. And the facts that we know are that Zimmerman followed and Martin avoided. "

You aren't avoiding someone if you deliberately approach a person, punch them in the face, knock them down, straddle them, and repeatedly smash their head onto the ground.

[dennisw]

My thoughts too. We live in BRA where blacks can say any kind of crazy arse *hit and it will fly as gospel truth in the mainstream media. But the truth comes out in the comments section where the comments tend to be to the right of FR (if there is a comments section)

[ExTxMarine]

Really? It shows that he never grabbed or pushed or punched in the chest...none of which would leave a mark on Zimmerman or Martin?

Yes, it actually shows that Zimmerman never grabbed or punched Martin in the chest, because those would have left a mark on Martin.

I have done many investigations, some of which included deaths, and simply stated, the evidence in this case speaks for itself. The fact that Zimmerman's demeanor to the police during their investigation and his never changing story is proof that his statements are truthful. People who are lying will continually "add to their story," in an attempt to bolster their last, newly revealed detail. The fact that Zimmerman was only questioned for a few hours and not initially detained on the night of the incident says that he did not change his statements throughout the questioning - this is a technique which investigators use to catch people who are lying. And I guarantee that this is the type of proof which the defense will use in court to clear Zimmerman.

If you fail to see these as facts, then I really can't help you understand them any better. Thanks for the conversation.

[AnthonySoprano]

.

There is No Evidence of a Fight - there is Evidence of an ATTACK

There is No evidence that Trayvon was ever hit, scratched, or even had his hair pulled.

One person attacked an unsuspecting person - and that person followed the Law in using Deadly force to prevent imminent Great Bodily Harm.

Trayvon jumped him - and was in Control.

..

.

[BlueMondaySkipper]

I'm well aware of the lingering og THC in the body. If he had THC in his system he was indeed stoned, at least he was at one point, which fits perfectly with my claim. I never claimed he was stoned at that particular instant. THC in your system is illegal so my claim is correct and your claim he did not do anything illegal is incorrect.

In addition, the autopsy found the bullt hole. along with powder burns as well as trauma to Martin's knuckles. No facial injury to indicate Zimmerman hit him first as per your claim.

Even if it were the case that Zimmerman started the fight, once Martin had him on the ground and Zimmerman was calling for help, Martin would have the obligation to cease the pummelling. If he didn't Zimmerman, would be perfectly within his right to shoot him since he could not retreat with Martin on top of him.

[patriot08]

While the Zimmerman/Martin ‘white’ on black killing is covered 24/7 on the MSM with an outpouring of rage and charges of a racial hate crime, where is the concern- where is the rage about the home invasion, torture, beating, rape and murder of the elderly white couple by a gang of feral blacks in Tulsa, Oklahoma just a few months ago?

The 90 year old war veteran husband was beaten and his jaw broken. He was shot in the face numerous times with a BB gun and sent to the hospital in critical condition.

The 85 year old partially blind wife was RAPED and then BEATEN TO DEATH.

Can you just imagine the pain, the humiliation, the horror that dear old lady experienced being gang raped by that pack of feral animals?

(the autopsy states she was raped. Don’t think all of these animals didn’t all participate)

And can you imagine the pain, the horror of that dear old husband having to witness this?

Mr. Strait died from his injuries last week.

There’s a lot more involved here than a home invasion and robbery.

WHERE ARE THE CHARGES OF A RACIAL HATE CRIME??

90 year old husband’s jaw broken and shot in face with a BB gun numerous times?

85 wife year old semi blind wife RAPED and BEATEN to death??

Why does it take a foreign press to enlighten America as to this henious crime?

WHERE IS THE NATIONAL OUTRAGE?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html

__________________________

Have they caught the rest of the gang of feral blacks who raped, tortured and murdered this elderly woman? Are they even looking? Not a word about it in the media.

[Tublecane]

“When you ‘stand your ground’ and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight.”

Small point, but since so much has been flung back and forth about Stand Your Ground in this case, I thought I’d point out that if Martin was pinning Zimmerman to the ground as he and an eye witness testified, he had no ability to retreat and therefore can assert regular-old self-defense as opposed to Stand Your Ground self-defense.

“You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in.”

Yes you do, if the other guy attacked you. You don’t mean a “figh you engaged in”; you mean a fight you started. And in order for you not to be able to assert self-defense, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt you started it. I don’t think they can do so in this case. And certainly they can’t prove the depraved mind required for murder 2.

“That is all the prosecutors have - to try and make it look like (racist, angry, mean, awful) Zimmerman was picking a fight by ‘stalking’ little skittles boy until Zimmerman got the fight he was egging (it was skittles boy who was standing his ground againt the big bad stalker man) on so he could shoot Martin.”

Yes, you can make following sound more ominous by calling it “stalking” and confronting sinister by dubbing it egging on a fight. But following and confronting aren’t illegal, and you’ll need more than words to use them to show Zimmerman had no right to self-defense.

“Unless the prosecutor has evidence we don’t know about, this is a political show trial steeped in race hate and hatred of the second amendment’s right to self defense.”

I want to believe there’s something more, and that prosecuters aren’t willing to throw their careers away and open themselves up to malicious prosecution charges for the sake of politics. But it’s happened before, and perhaps we have a new Nifong.

[Trailerpark Badass]

LOL, "link?"

Like you say, there are only two possibilities. If one can be discounted, the other is proved.

One would have to believe that the CCW-carrying neighborhood watch captain, having given his name and location to the police, knowing the police were on their way, with a gun in his waistband, would throw the first punch against the suspcicious person he had been observing. Sorry, but that's preposterous, compared to the only other alternative.

Do you have a CCW permit? Do you carry concealed? Having done so for 25 years, I know from my experience and those related to me by others, that doing so makes one approach potential confrontation infinitely more soberly. And every class I've ever attended taught retreat first, and that physical confrontation while armed was to be avoided if at all possible. Whom you call "macho fools" in NYC are called "neighbors" down here where I live, and they don't seem to fit the liberal Yankee stereotype of the hothead with a gun. Your bias against concerned citizens like Zimmerman is obvious enough.

If you don't trust your own experience and judgment enough to pick one of the two ONLY possibilities, that's a You problem.

Were you on the Casey Anthony jury?

[mass55th]

"Sorry, dude, there is zero evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman..."

And where's your evidence that he didn't attack Zimmerman? If you've got the video or audio of the incident, or you personally witnessed it, then post it.

[mass55th]

"If you have real evidence then post it. But you won't because there is none. "

The DA in the case chose not to press charges based on the fact that the evidence they had would not lead to a conviction.

[PhatHead]

When you “stand your ground” and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight. You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in.

Well, it isn't really that cut and dried, either. There is a principle of proportionality, too. If I use "fighting words" to provoke you, or grab your elbow to keep you from walking away, then you hit me over the head with a brick, I most certainly have not forfeited my right to self-defense - with or without "stand your ground" laws.

In this case, you could substitute "hit with a brick" from my hypothetical to "punched in face, knocked head on pavement and pinned on ground to pummel."

We know from the documents released, and from sworn testimony by the police, that there is no evidence Zimmerman started anything. Still, to satisfy the speculations of some on this thread, let's suppose he did: what level of provocation would he need to have engaged in to forfeit his own right to self defense against the actions of Martin, which now seem to be pretty well established?

I can only think of one possible level of provocation by Zimmerman which would not leave a mark - brandishing his gun. And I am certain that is why the prosecution earlier implied that Zimmerman did just that. However, there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

[Tublecane]

“Were you on the Casey Anthony jury?”

I wouldn’t go there. If anything the Casey Anthony defense should be a model for Zimmerman. The state in that case couldn’t prove its case, merely relying on what was not a crime—i.e. failing to report the kid’s disappearance—to hint that she was the one who killed her. Well, Casey shutting her mouth for a month was far worse than Zimmerman “following” and “confronting” Martin and getting out of his truck. Someone killed Caylee, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Casey.

But you can’t convict according to the “someone did it” mindset, nor by the “Martin was unarmed” mindset. Neither adds up to conviction. There was some evidence against Casey, in the form of internet searches, sticker residue, and trunk smells. Nothing to surpass the reasonable doubt bar, as the defense could reasonably posit that she drowned in the pool and Casey’s dad helped her cover it up. Likewise, Zimmerman could have started the fight and resorted to shooting once he was losing. But it also could’ve happened like I think it probably did, i.e. by Martin committing assault by attacking Zimmerman and Zimmerman shooting Martin.

[kevao]

I haven’t been following this case all that closely. Has anyone established why Martin was even in that neighborhood in the first place?