Posted on 06/13/2012 6:05:21 PM PDT by Grig
This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.
All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.
That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.
I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.
And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.
While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE
I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:
- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him
- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,
- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security
- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life
- He will be a better president than either Bush was
- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines
- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory
- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term
- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)
And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism
- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.
- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.
- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.
I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.
I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.
I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.
I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.
That's my experience with mad bombers ~ the one who almost got me was, as you know, one of your fellow worshippers.
So, it's probably Harry Reid who tries to assassinate a President. He's crazy. He wants a better job. He hates Republicans. It's all there!
I do know that was forgotten completely in the run up to the Virginia primary. Somebody forgot that about 80% of the vote here is Evangelical ~ white and black ~ and if you want to get them out to vote for you it is necessary to kiss their communal tush, not kick it.
I'm looking at an historic low voter turnout here over that one issue.
I do hope for their sake that this idea that an Evangelical is going to assassinate a Mormon President is not a widespread belief.
NOTE ~ probably the right thread to note this, so far Romney hasn't made a big public appearance here before the masses of the great unwashed. His every appearance has been tightly controlled before elected officials or really, really, really rich people with their own security forces, and off in areas well off the beaten path.
He's showing every sign of being afraid of us.
There's more than a koinkydink going on here.
Just like their brethren in the Church of the First Born, the Mormons dig on horses. Ours ~ referring to the ancestors ~ was the same as that of the Indians ~ the spirit came to them and said "cut the horse loose. follow the horse" and that's how a bunch of them ended up in Oklahoma ~ actually them and the Indians eventually ended up in the same spot.
I have a theory about the trail the horses took, but that's not relevant here.
ALL the horse prophecies are less important and grand than the believers think them to be. In any case, you could be less embarrassed about these prophecies since they really do exist ~ they are part of the folk tales that color the past and make it interesting. But these horses are still just horses and you know what folks who walk behind a horse are stepping into every mile of the journey.
Now, about my patriotism, I care enough about America's future to fight the phony RINO all the way to the convention. People who don't really care have given up and let this guy bull his way through with cheating and technicalities.
I'm sorry, I am patriotic and you aren't!
I'm sorry not everyone meets your standards all the time but there are occassions when we have to slop the hogs anyway!
There's a cerebral disconnect between his mouth and his hands.
Dude had a gun in jail.
That, BTW, is an intersting piece of history. That was a common practice in frontier America. You just never separated a man from his piece ~ he might well need it! But, he wasn't going to escape from jail if he said he wasn't.
Sorry, but that's not the way it works. You can't deny basic Biblical doctrine, even down to the nature of God, and call yourself Christian. Believe whatever you want, but to be Christian (as Protestants and Catholics ARE) you have to go with the doctrine that exists instead of making up your own. No matter how much you say it won't make it so.
And as for Romney, I don't care who votes for him. But I'm not going to go along with the campaign to suddenly whitewash him and make him "conservative". He's an abortion pusher and a homosexual lover; that is his history and his record, no matter how inconvenient that might be for you. It's only been a few weeks since he said that "people of the same gender who LOVE each other" should be able to adopt children. Again, if you're comfortable casting a vote for that, go for it. But I will have nothing to do with him.
“Oh, sure there is...only instead of protesting like the Westboro family, you get Mormon back-and-forth murders between Mormon sects — like the LeBaron Mormons (see Ervil LeBaron...oh, and see also the Lafferty Brother Mormons”
The fact that you have to resort to naming groups outside of the LDS church who act contrary to the teachings of the LDS church underscores my point that my church isn’t out there stirring up contention.
“Ya know, the Westboros are essentially just one extended family — not so much a “church” or “denomination”... “
Just pointing out an example of a certain kind of mentality, and when it comes to Mormons, that mentality seems to be on display among some Evangelicals.
If you want to take it as a personal insult that we think your religion is not a 100% match for the gospel of Christ (just as every religion thinks of every other religion), be my guest, but it is kind of childish to act like that.
If you want to exaggerate your grievance by falsely saying we hold the rest Christianity as 100% wrong when we see a lot of common ground, you can do that to, but it makes you look dishonest.
If you want to believe that a person can spit in the face of a true prophet of God and reject the word of God that comes through him and still legitimately claim to be a follower of Christ, you have that option, but be too surprised when those who do that and don’t repent of it wind up damned.
Take a look at many of the posts here, non-Mormon poster after non-Mormon poster saying how sick they are of the kind of crap you are pulling right here.
Except that being Christian only means accepting Christ as the Son of God and Savior and seeking salvation through his atonement. So Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons all count as Christian groups no matter what one has authority or what one is actually correct (ie: a living branch rather than a dead one). The problem you talk about simply doesn’t exist for us. You guys seem to be the ones having trouble wrapping your head around it.
“Given the history of Presidential assassinations it’s going to be another Leftwingtard ~ maybe someone exactly like Harry Reid ~ hey, maybe Harry Reid himself!”
LOL, Reid? How would he do it? Whisper him to death? I don’t think he could come up with enough manliness to put a worm on a fishing hook unless it was a photo-op.
I won’t rule out a left-winger trying, but I expect Mitt to pick a strong conservative running mate and so a lefty knocking him off wouldn’t help them any.
“It’s well known that the mob that went after JS had been members...”
BS, it did include some who were excommunicated from us for their sins, but the historical fact is that the mob was people from Carthage, not Nauvoo.
“Sorry, but that’s not the way it works. You can’t deny basic Biblical doctrine, even down to the nature of God, and call yourself Christian.”
Being Christian does not require subscribing to the orthodox view. Look up the word Christian in the dictionary and you won’t see a requirement to buy into the trinity or the creeds.
What we reject is orthodox Christianity’s interpretation of the Bible from which they derive doctrines about the nature of God etc. that we hold as being incorrect. Nor are our doctrines ‘made up’ but revealed by God.
You know if you fail to discern when you read what I write, don't blame me when you twist my words.
I quite specifically declared that the Lds Church has declared the Christian CREEDS as "100% wrong" ... NOT as you twisted your generic reference to "Christianity...a lot of common ground" -- whatever that means.
So, let's go back to the Mormon source and then see your twisting in the wind on that:
Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects |
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain] |
| “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
So what part of "ALL" -- as in "ALL their creeds are an abomination" -- do you fail to understand???
All as in ‘each one of them has something wrong’, not all as in ‘every bit of every one of them wrong’. But of course for people who want to be offended, or at least act offended as a rhetorical tactic, will take it whatever they serves their agenda best.
Why do you care (or pretend to care) so much about what Mormons think of your creeds? Why is our approval so important to you? It is strange.
They were POd
I know that Mormons were the close confidants of Howard Hughes almost throughout his life. He chose to hire them exactly because they did not smoke, drink or gamble. He felt that they were very honest people and would not steal from him. I suppose, though, that there are bad eggs in every basket.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.