F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report

ABC News/Yahoo News ^ | 30 July 2012 | Lee Ferran

[moonshot925]

The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is "evenly matched" with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.

The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.

The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.

"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."

[JRandomFreeper]

There is a reason they call them MISSles and not HITles. ;)

/johnny

[Erich von Manstein]

Hartmann was never shot down. He survived many crashes, crash landings etc. but was never shot down, ever.

My favorite is Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel. The most decorated German pilot of WWII (Panzerjäger, Panzerchlachtflieger, Schlachtflieger, Schnellkampflieger, Zerstörerflieger, Jagdflieger ). He was consulted when the A10 warthog was being designed due to his 500 Ruski tank victories in WWII.

[yarddog]

My Father had several pictures of the first Russian tank to enter Berlin. He took pictures in 1945 of the monument being constructed and a few after it was completed.

Daddy simply described it as a “Stalin tank”. When he was in a nursing home not too long before he died, I took a bunch of his WWII pics to let him look at. Daddy smiled at the Stalin tank and said it was blown up during the night. Daddy had Alzheimers so I wasn’t sure if his memory was right.

Anyway I looked up on the internet, the first Russian tank in Berlin and sure enough, there are now two T-34s. They are in the same place (Tiergarten Square) so apparently after the first one was blown up they simply found two other “first” tanks into Berlin.

[Phlyer]

I think most of the responders are missing the key point.

They only asked one of the sides how they did! If a fighter pilot says his side won about half the time, the actual success rate was probably about 5%.

I work for one of the major aerospace companies. A few years ago our Operations Analysis types visited squadrons that operated our aircraft. We asked: What can we do to make your (our) airplane better?

The answer was always: Not a thing. They all said they had the best fighter ever made, and that they could wipe out any other pilots in any other planes anywhere in the world. They're fighter pilots!

So our Ops Analysis guys went to Brand X squadrons and asked, "What do you do to fight (our aircraft)?"

From them we got some good insight. But what we found was that those who said, "I can win about half the time" were losing virtually all the time. The pilots who said, "I win damn near all the time," were winning half the time, and those who said they never lost were also lying . . . but they truly did win most of the time.

The problem with the Typhoon in particular is that - like all the canard/deltas - it bleeds energy in a fight so fast that they get about half of one good turn and then they're a rock. Good tactics - particularly team tactics where you don't fight one-on-one anyway - eat fighters that have that single trick for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

One last story, this time from the 'other' side as well. During the F-22 operational test and evaluation, they flew against F-15s. This was to develop tactics, so they were not limited by pre-ordained rules of engagement. The F-15 pilot was asked, "How hard is to fight an F-22 in an F-15?"

His answer was, "It's easy. You go up. You die. You go up. You die."

[tayper]

strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta

[doorgunner69]

Yes, the AESA is a huge advantage, until jamming tech improves and takes that away, they your BVR advantage vanishes. What the Russkies practiced all day long.

[SampleMan]

I might be confusing the two. Its been a while since I was reading up on either.

[sarge83]

Sounds like the F22 pilots just need to continue to have dog fighting tactics pounded into them. You dominate the stand off fights but you need to know how to win in a turning knife fight as well.

[Moltke]

bmfl

[Little Ray]

The JS series were darn good tanks, too.
I’m sure your father had nothing to do with that “unfortunate” incident...
Bless him.

[yarddog]

I don't think Daddy personally had anything to do with it but he did laugh and say some thought the 208th, which was the combat engineering battalion he belonged to, may have done it. The picture is of the tank and that is my Father sitting there.

[Real Cynic No More]

Quantity has a quality all its own. We’ve also made this aviation mistake before - eschewing dogfighting - thinking that dogfighting was a thing of the past.

I've seen it happen time and time again in business the same as in government: Managers just continue to look for the "one size fits all" solution, when what is needed is a balanced approach.

Life and conflict are very rarely "either/or" situations; rather, success comes from having combinations of both.

[Yo-Yo]

A Growler, eh? How does that work?

The pilot ain't sayin'. Read what little there is to read at The DEW Line blog.

[Monorprise]

More than you would think. What concerns me is in a REAL war our city’s and manufacturing base will be crippled, or at the very least our supply lines will be strenuous at best.

Its going to be a lot harder to produce & distribute theses very complex missile systems, assuming we could ever build enough of them to take down an air-force more than 5 times more numerous than our own.

[JRandomFreeper]

Give me numbers. Every air engagement from the gulf war forward is detailed, and there was 1 each BVR air-to-air by F-15s. That was actually run by an AWACs.

An Iraqi Mig-25 did take an F-18 out with a BVR shot.

There aren't many examples out there. The ROE don't generally allow it.

Are you a zoomie?

/johnny

[JRandomFreeper]

A Growler, eh? How does that work?

Once upon a time there were some old crows.....

/johnny

[Freedom_Is_Not_Free]

It is ridiculous to discuss “old school dogfighting” when the Raptor has already shot down all opponents beyond the horizon, long before they can close.

[Jet Jaguar]

Thanks for the ping.

I am told the 22 pilots were severly restricted in the tactics they were able to use.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Or maybe you don’t show off your best capabilities in public.

[rlmorel]

Interesting. I guess I can understand him being close-mouthed. Love to hear about that “well timed” shot...:)